Of A 386 Casebacks And Forgeries

Gents,

what follows is an amalgamation of two posts I made concerning this topic elsewhere:

The first is a duplication of a post I made elsewhere regarding casebacks of El Primero ref A 386 based on the database of case numbers which I keep for the early El Primeros. An experienced member on one of the italian vintage fora alledged that all A 386 with smooth casebacks (as opposed to casebacks with the four-pointed "NATO" star) are fakes, known to him to be assembled in Italy in recent years. This was challenged, and caused me to review the database.

First, this applies only to A 386 casebacks. It's very important not to consider casebacks from other El Primero references. It confuses matters.

Second, SP 1205 is the only correct Spillman number for the A 386. Spillman is the case manufacturer for the A 386 and other El Primeros.
Third, by using caseback numbers, I find clearly three production groups
Again, from my database (14 examples total):

Type A Early production series
3 examples
- case numbers 538Dxxx - 539Dxxx
- plain caseback
- internal inscription as follows
a) Zenith
b) Swiss made;
c) Acier inoxidable;
d) no Spillman number
The writing is centered

Click this bar to view the original image of 1023x685px.


Type BMiddle production series
4 examples
- plain caseback
- case numbers 707Dxxx - 708Dxxx
- internal inscription as follows:
a) Zenith;
b) Swiss made;
c) Acier inoxidable;
d) SP 1205 (Spillman number)
The writing is centered



Type CLate production series6 examples
- Caseback with four point star (NATO star)
- case numbers
861Dxxx-862Dxxx
922Dxxx-923Dxxx
231Exxx-233Exxx
- internal inscription as follows:
a) Zenith;
b) Swiss made;
c) Acier inoxidable;
d) SP 1205
The writing is arranged circumferentially



The incorrect watches, which I believe to be forged as longinespassion has stated, have correct casebacks, but they are incorrect for the case numberIn addition, case numbers lie outside of known production series, typically in the mid 900Dxxx range (922 & 923D are authentic). Dials tend to be modern-style service dials as discussed elsewhere on this forum.

for example, serial 936D460 - Type B caseback
Click this bar to view the original image of 1024x768px.


Friend Nicola1960 has summarized the above in a nifty table:


I hope this will be of some use to members....

The second post: In followup to the recent post on smooth vs. starred casebacks , I thought I’d post the current caseback number data of the A 386 from the database, as close inspection has made it obvious to me that some of these are so irregular that they stand a good chance of being forgeries as has been alleged on the Italian forum. The good news is that they are not hard to spot as you will see. The “tells” extend well beyond the caseback, and the forger has even been so cavalier to give us a clear numerical indication.

So, the data:
The database contains 35 watches, and the caseback number is known in 34(with a few uncertainties regarding single digits among them). 1 is blank.
Of the 34 in which the caseback number is known, they cluster in five production series PLUS 6 watches that are scattered between two series, as follows.

1st Series: 5 exemplars, Caseback numbers 538Dxxx-539Dxxx, smooth Type A caseback as defined in the thread cited above.

2nd series: 11 exemplars, Caseback numbers 706Dxxx-708Dxxx, smooth Type B caseback as defined in the thread above.

3rd series: 4 exemplars, Caseback numbers 861Dxxx-862Dxxx, NATO-star Type C caseback as defined in the thread above. Of note, the first in this series, 861D695, has been dated by Zenith to March 11, 1970, the only hard date we have in the series

4th series: 6 exemplars, Caseback numbers 922Dxxx-923Dxxx, NATO-star Type C caseback as defined in the thread above.

5th series: 3 exemplars, caseback numbers 231Exxx-233Exxx, NATO-star Type C caseback as defined in the thread above.

There are six other watches which fit in between 4th and 5th series. They are numbered as follows (‘x’ means digit unknown): 930D4x0, 936D460, 941D460, 947Dxxx, 980D460, 984D460. Notice anything beyond the fact that they are much more scattered than the other 28 watches? Yup, they all end in ‘460.’ Some coincidence, huh?

Now, some of these are not well photodocumented, but let’s look at what we have.

930D4x0:
Modern service dial
Click this bar to view the original image of 1024x680px.


Note that the caseback is not completely flat; there is a central area that is different from the rest, as if the four-point star has been polished out
Click this bar to view the original image of 1024x680px.


936D460
Modern service dial
Click this bar to view the original image of 1024x768px.


That funny looking caseback again with the odd central area, and now with usually deep numbers
Click this bar to view the original image of 1024x768px.


Inside, a Type B pattern, whereas the 4th and 5th series bracketing this caseback number have Type C casebacks
Click this bar to view the original image of 1024x768px.


941D460
Modern service dial


Caseback with polished out star again


980D460
Modern service dial


This time the caseback looks good (perfectly flat)…


..but at least the rotor is not correct, and I'd be curious if that movement is a 400 or a 3019, but the seller obscured that bit of info


947Dxxx and 984D460 also both have modern service dials, but I do not have photodocumentation of other features.

Of note, 984D460 currently holds the record for highest price for an A 386 at auction, at Antiquorum October 9, 2010 (HKD 38,750)




So in summary, 28 watches in well-defined production sequences and 6 more loosely numbered that don't fit in. And these six all (probably) end in 460. And they all have modern service dials. NONE of the other 28 do. Mix in the wonky casebacks and other detail irregularities and draw your own conclusions…

Great further info, Alex. I have heard that there were quite a number of these fakes produced - good to see that documented. I suspect there are still more out there.


It's not impossible, but it does require great patience. Ut's OK to have a "wearer" in your collection at the meantime. As for prices, it's up to you as Chris says, but you should be honest with yourself. The only reason there has been no price divergence between these and the real ones is ignorance on the part of the buyers. As collector's eyes become more sophisticated, the divergence will surely happen.

Sohail,

Read the thread from the beginning. There are plenty of pictures of forgeries/fakes.


What term do you propose for a watch that was not assembled by Zenith, and which has a forged case number?

So you would think! Here's what I think happened. In a later numbering system, the number on the back of the case was the reference number rather than a case number. The last three digits referred to the movement, and this were the same for any watch with a given movement. Mr. Watch Forger assumed that in the earlier system, the last three digits worked the same way, hence all examples end in '460,' referring to Primero. Fortunately for us, these stand out from the authentic case numbers like sore thumbs.

...and "non d'origine" sounds like it is trying to carve out a space between "authentic" and "fake" (or "forged") which is not there. I might be persuaded accept the term "non d'origine" for something like the Watchco Seamaster 300, where the manufacturer/seller is clear about what has been done, but the A 386 were made and are almost always sold with intent to deceive, so they will remain forgeries for me.