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Mark020
··not the sharpest pencil in the ΩF drawerThe Rolex rule/law is a very strange one but indeed a big risk.
Non-US sellers on eBay?
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gatorcpa
··ΩF InvestiGatorThe Rolex rule/law is a very strange one but indeed a big risk.
One would think having watches confiscated from otherwise law-biding citizens would be bad public relations for Rolex. However, since they keep such a tight rein on production and sell almost everything they produce, it doesn't really hurt them at all.
gatorcpa
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Archer
··Omega Qualified WatchmakerRolex is the big green bully of the watch world...
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Privateday7
·They are bullies with customers (with all their various requirements) but are even worse with watchmakers!
It is interesting because my watchmaker love to service Rolex and he said he have access to many Rolex parts through grey market. Other brands are not as easy.
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cicindela
··Steve @ ΩFI have imported one perpetual, from Argentina no less. Labeled vintage watch, via Express Mail. Took a week to process through JFK postal customs, the volume they get may have helped.😁
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Archer
··Omega Qualified WatchmakerIt is interesting because my watchmaker love to service Rolex and he said he have access to many Rolex parts through grey market. Other brands are not as easy.
For those who service them exclusively, they can be a huge money maker. People will pay more for servicing a Rolex than they will other similar mid-level brands like Omega.
If he is getting parts through the grey market, then yes he has not experienced how they treat watchmakers directly - good for him.
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citizenrich
·Rolex USA and US lawmakers, I didn't know a company could ask for their own law either until I found out about this thing years ago.
It's not their own law. They take advantage of a provision of the Lanham Act and use US Customs as their private mercenary force.
one day, when I'm a little older and have more time on my hands, I'm going to buy like a 300 dollar beat up 6094 from overseas and have the seller include the the credit card receipt and make certain the paperwork is 100% in order.
I'll then see Rolex in federal court down the road where I will expose this nonsense. Need lots of time to cause this sort of trouble but it's an easy win. Why does Rolex USA hate equal protection and the US Constitution?
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UncleBuck
··understands the decision making hierarchyIt's not their own law. They take advantage of a provision of the Lanham Act and use US Customs as their private mercenary force.
one day, when I'm a little older and have more time on my hands, I'm going to buy like a 300 dollar beat up 6094 from overseas and have the seller include the the credit card receipt and make certain the paperwork is 100% in order.
I'll then see Rolex in federal court down the road where I will expose this nonsense. Need lots of time to cause this sort of trouble but it's an easy win. Why does Rolex USA hate equal protection and the US Constitution?
I'll bet you that Rolex beater that you will find much more enjoyable ways to cause trouble as you season!
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gatorcpa
··ΩF InvestiGatorIt's not their own law. They take advantage of a provision of the Lanham Act and use US Customs as their private mercenary force.
one day, when I'm a little older and have more time on my hands, I'm going to buy like a 300 dollar beat up 6094 from overseas and have the seller include the the credit card receipt and make certain the paperwork is 100% in order.
I'll then see Rolex in federal court down the road where I will expose this nonsense. Need lots of time to cause this sort of trouble but it's an easy win. Why does Rolex USA hate equal protection and the US Constitution?
I wish you a lot of luck on that one. As I said above, the reason why Rolex can request enforcement is that the owners of the US importer and the Swiss manufacturer are not the same. I believe that the factory is owned by a Swiss charitable foundation, while the US company is a for-profit private corporation.
The law is what it is, fair or not, and unless you can convince Congress and the President to change it, you'll lose.
Rolex doesn't hate equal protection. They believe in the "Animal Farm" definition of equality.
"All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others."
gatorcpa
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bill5959
·Perhaps we should apply the "Lord of the Flies" rule of law. 😡
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justintime
·Re importing Rolex. I am an import exporter of branded products. In the USA there exists a law called the first sale doctrine. As such if you bought it you own it and can do what you wish with it. Therefore I am sorry to disagree with the esteemed members but customs in the USA are simply not able to stop the legitimate import of a rolex which is authentic. That said what they can do is try and stop counterfeit and the difficulty is that when Customs are unsure they may well ask Rolex. In these case the definition of the word counterfeit comes in to play ie we all believe counterfeit is 'fake' however rolex deems that which is counterfeit anything which was not sold through an authorized source in the country it should have been sold in etc etc ie it targets grey marketed product also. Therefore really customs should only seize a rolex if it is authenticated as counterfeit and you get a chance to prove this is not the case and normally customs are reasonable. I may add importing brands in to the eu is wholly different and the laws there give the brand owner the right to stop importation of their goods. This does not mean you can't import but only that if the brand owner wants then it can issue a cease and desist order against you and take you to court. It's along drawn out process and In reality they won't do this for one watch they are interested only in large parallel importers and even then only if they know about them and if they are effecting their eu channels. I don't think also it effects not current and not new ie vintage product This is my experience and I hope it helps
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Archer
··Omega Qualified WatchmakerTherefore I am sorry to disagree with the esteemed members but customs in the USA are simply not able to stop the legitimate import of a rolex which is authentic.
Sorry, but this is wrong. This is not something we are making up - it is well known in the watch collector community.
If I can find some links from the US Customs site I have here somewhere I'll post them. Bottom line is that importing a Rolex is risky, as it can be seized even if genuine.
Cheers, Al
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speedbird
·Sorry, but this is wrong. This is not something we are making up - it is well known in the watch collector community.
If I can find some links from the US Customs site I have here somewhere I'll post them. Bottom line is that importing a Rolex is risky, as it can be seized even if genuine.
Cheers, Al
Al is completely correct, we aren't making up stories here. The only way to import a Rolex into the US through the mail is express written permission from RUSA and I only know of ONE instance where they let this poor lady get her vintage GMT Master out of customs jail.
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Archer
··Omega Qualified WatchmakerTo justintime...
If you don't believe the restrictions, read this:
http://rulings.cbp.gov/detail.asp?ru=h071620&ac=pr
From that document:
"19 C.F.R. § 133.23(c).
(c) Denial of entry. All restricted gray market goods imported into the United States shall be denied entry and subject to detention as provided in §133.25,… 19 C.F.R. § 133.23(c). (emphasis retained.) (emphasis added.)
In accordance with the published CBP regulations, specifically 19 C.F.R. § 133.23(c), all merchandise subject to gray market importations restricted shall be denied entry and subject to detention as provided in 19 C.F.R. § 133.25. Thus, pursuant to CBP regulations, all such merchandise shall be denied entry, to include all merchandise bearing genuine "Rolex" trademarks that is not being imported by the recordant. Therefore, CBP Port Directors may deny entry and detain every genuine Rolex watch bearing a Rolex trademark that is brought into the United States in any manner, by any form of transportation, which is not being imported by the actual recordant of the trademark, Rolex Watch U.S.A. Inc. CBP maintains the authority to exercise these procedures with respect to your specific inquiry as well. 19 U.S.C. § 1526(a),(b). 19 C.F.R. §§ 133.23, 133.25. See, United States v. Eighty-Three Rolex Watches, 992 F. 2d 508 (5th Cir. 1993).
Relief from denial of entry and detention of merchandise subject to gray market importations restricted may be obtained by compliance with the CBP regulations located at 19 C.F.R. §§ 133.23(d), 133.22(c). The provisions of 19 C.F.R. § 133.23(d)(1)-(3) are not here relevant. The relevant CBP regulations set forth at 19 C.F.R. § 133.22(c) provide as follows."
I have added bold and underline to the section that spells it out quite succinctly. There is no grey area here, so advising people that there is no such restriction is dangerous and could lead to people losing their watches.
"You learn something new every day" as the saying goes.
Cheers, Al
If you don't believe the restrictions, read this:
http://rulings.cbp.gov/detail.asp?ru=h071620&ac=pr
From that document:
"19 C.F.R. § 133.23(c).
(c) Denial of entry. All restricted gray market goods imported into the United States shall be denied entry and subject to detention as provided in §133.25,… 19 C.F.R. § 133.23(c). (emphasis retained.) (emphasis added.)
In accordance with the published CBP regulations, specifically 19 C.F.R. § 133.23(c), all merchandise subject to gray market importations restricted shall be denied entry and subject to detention as provided in 19 C.F.R. § 133.25. Thus, pursuant to CBP regulations, all such merchandise shall be denied entry, to include all merchandise bearing genuine "Rolex" trademarks that is not being imported by the recordant. Therefore, CBP Port Directors may deny entry and detain every genuine Rolex watch bearing a Rolex trademark that is brought into the United States in any manner, by any form of transportation, which is not being imported by the actual recordant of the trademark, Rolex Watch U.S.A. Inc. CBP maintains the authority to exercise these procedures with respect to your specific inquiry as well. 19 U.S.C. § 1526(a),(b). 19 C.F.R. §§ 133.23, 133.25. See, United States v. Eighty-Three Rolex Watches, 992 F. 2d 508 (5th Cir. 1993).
Relief from denial of entry and detention of merchandise subject to gray market importations restricted may be obtained by compliance with the CBP regulations located at 19 C.F.R. §§ 133.23(d), 133.22(c). The provisions of 19 C.F.R. § 133.23(d)(1)-(3) are not here relevant. The relevant CBP regulations set forth at 19 C.F.R. § 133.22(c) provide as follows."
I have added bold and underline to the section that spells it out quite succinctly. There is no grey area here, so advising people that there is no such restriction is dangerous and could lead to people losing their watches.
"You learn something new every day" as the saying goes.
Cheers, Al
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gatorcpa
··ΩF InvestiGatorJustintime is more or less correct. In theory, you should legally be able to send a watch you have legitimately acquired (like from an AD) to Al in Canada for service and be able to get it back into the country. However, Rolex's attorneys have taken the position that any Rolex product imported by any method should be seized until the owner can prove that it was acquired legitimately. For Rolex, the word "legitimately" means only from Rolex USA.
Further, Rolex has specifically requested, as is their right to, that the USPS and Customs seize all Rolex product at the border until the appropriate provenance has been established to their satisfaction. Again in theory, this shouldn't be difficult if you are the original purchaser from a US Rolex dealer. But it would involve hiring an attorney to speak to Customs and obtaining a release from Rolex under threat of legal action. All of which would likely cost far more than almost any watch is worth.
If you purchased your watch second-hand, then in Rolex's eyes you are a counterfeiter, unless you can definitively prove provenance back to Rolex USA and also show that all transactions were legally conducted. So basically, you are SOL there.
This is the best explanation of the situation regarding importation of Rolex to the US:
http://www.crownandcaliber.com/watches/rolex/how-do-you-import-a-rolex-watch-into-the-united-states/
Here is copy of a 2009 ruling from US Customs that addresses the issue as well:
http://rulings.cbp.gov/detail.asp?ru=h071620&ac=pr
Watches or parts legally purchased as used are not exempt from the above under the laws as I understand them. Rolex's position is that while they don't necessarily own the finished goods after they are sold, they do own the name, logos and trademarks which are attached to the watch. The ruling above states that the watches may be legally imported if all trademarked material is removed or defaced. Not a practical solution, since a lot of the parts inside the watch also bear the name, logo or trademark of Rolex.
Below is the trademark listing for Rolex USA.
http://iprs.cbp.gov/index.asp?action=detail&id=28702&searchArg=rolex&page=1&chkkey=
You can call Rolex's attorneys if you want to try to change their mind. Their address and phone number are in the link above.
Let us know how you make out,
gatorcpa
Further, Rolex has specifically requested, as is their right to, that the USPS and Customs seize all Rolex product at the border until the appropriate provenance has been established to their satisfaction. Again in theory, this shouldn't be difficult if you are the original purchaser from a US Rolex dealer. But it would involve hiring an attorney to speak to Customs and obtaining a release from Rolex under threat of legal action. All of which would likely cost far more than almost any watch is worth.
If you purchased your watch second-hand, then in Rolex's eyes you are a counterfeiter, unless you can definitively prove provenance back to Rolex USA and also show that all transactions were legally conducted. So basically, you are SOL there.
This is the best explanation of the situation regarding importation of Rolex to the US:
http://www.crownandcaliber.com/watches/rolex/how-do-you-import-a-rolex-watch-into-the-united-states/
Here is copy of a 2009 ruling from US Customs that addresses the issue as well:
http://rulings.cbp.gov/detail.asp?ru=h071620&ac=pr
Watches or parts legally purchased as used are not exempt from the above under the laws as I understand them. Rolex's position is that while they don't necessarily own the finished goods after they are sold, they do own the name, logos and trademarks which are attached to the watch. The ruling above states that the watches may be legally imported if all trademarked material is removed or defaced. Not a practical solution, since a lot of the parts inside the watch also bear the name, logo or trademark of Rolex.
Below is the trademark listing for Rolex USA.
http://iprs.cbp.gov/index.asp?action=detail&id=28702&searchArg=rolex&page=1&chkkey=
You can call Rolex's attorneys if you want to try to change their mind. Their address and phone number are in the link above.
Let us know how you make out,
gatorcpa
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Archer
··Omega Qualified WatchmakerJustintime is more or less correct.
gatorcpa
Actually when he says this:
"Therefore I am sorry to disagree with the esteemed members but customs in the USA are simply not able to stop the legitimate import of a rolex which is authentic."
He is totally incorrect, as the post I've made and the links you have shared indicate. They clearly can and do seize genuine Rolex watches at the border - it happens - it's a fact. It is not about controlling fakes as he is suggesting, and it clearly states in these documents it's about grey market protection. Of course they confiscate fakes as well, but this is a completely different issue.
As an aside, yes it's possible to do what you are suggesting and you don't necessarily need a lawyer to contact Rolex on your behalf. A member here plans to eventually send me his vintage Rolex (if he doesn't sell it first! 😀) for service from the US, and he has already contacted Rolex USA's lawyer and they have told him how to handle this situation to avoid the watch being seized on the way back. This is a valuable and pristine vintage Rolex, so it may be worth the trouble to go through all this to allow me to service the watch. Most Rolex watches I get asked to service are not worth this effort, so that is why I turn them down most of the time.
And in the end even if you have all the paperwork, I make it clear to people that if it gets held up going back, it has nothing to do with me. That is what I am most concerned about personally, as I don't want to see someone get burned, and I don't want to be in the middle of a situation where someone has lost a watch - even if it's not my fault.
Cheers, Al
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gatorcpa
··ΩF InvestiGatorActually when he says this:
"Therefore I am sorry to disagree with the esteemed members but customs in the USA are simply not able to stop the legitimate import of a rolex which is authentic."
He is totally incorrect, as the post I've made and the links you have shared indicate. They clearly can and do seize genuine Rolex watches at the border - it happens - it's a fact.
100% correct. I didn't mean to imply that Justintime was correct in that assertion. Only that his analysis was on point, even if it is not what is practiced in the real world.
As an aside, yes it's possible to do what you are suggesting and you don't necessarily need a lawyer to contact Rolex on your behalf. A member here plans to eventually send me his vintage Rolex (if he doesn't sell it first! 😀) for service from the US, and he has already contacted Rolex USA's lawyer and they have told him how to handle this situation to avoid the watch being seized on the way back. This is a valuable and pristine vintage Rolex, so it may be worth the trouble to go through all this to allow me to service the watch. Most Rolex watches I get asked to service are not worth this effort, so that is why I turn them down most of the time.
If the watch was that valuable and I didn't want to go through the paperwork, I'd just make the trip to Toronto and visit you personally to pick up the watch. After contacting Rolex, of course! 😀
Take care and be well,
gatorcpa
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bill5959
·I think you all are right. Unfortunately, Rolex has taken a hard and broad stance and somehow convinced US customs they are right, and broadly determined seizures as such. There are US rules that apply to importation on the basis of safety, because many products are built for specific markets to meet their unique needs, even where it is only signage in a foreign language or different safety signs. There is the first sale rule. Hell there are so many rules to allow corporate lawyers to play the game. It would be interesting to know the (shady😒 ) history of how Rolex got imbedded so well with US Customs. My own experience is that Customs is porous. But apparently the risk is very real. Nice guys---keep buying their products. 😀
