Input Requested: Ref. 2852/2853 SC 18K - "CHRONOMETRE" Dial & Family History

NorCal_DeLuxe · Mon. 1:52pm

Hello all,

Totally new here. I wanted to share a piece that has been in my family since new. This is an 18K Solid Gold Omega Constellation Ref 2852/2853 SC, powered by the Caliber 501.

The Story: My uncle (86y/o now) purchased this watch at a Military PX in West Germany back in 1962. It has been sitting in a safe for years and was recently verified by a local CW21 certified watchmaker in California.

The Details (from the specialist who verified it):

Case: 18K solid gold, appears unpolished with crisp observatory bricks and stars.

Dial: Crosshair dial with the "CHRONOMETRE" spelling and rare font. I was informed this is a professional refinished dial from decades ago, but the execution seems to have respected the original European market markers and fonts. It has an original crystal with the Omega logo. The crown was replaced with an Omega crown but not the decagonal crown.

Movement: Caliber 501 (Serial 14.6M).

The watch was serviced and now runs perfectly and then he had it verified by another watch shop locally.

I'm currently researching its history and market interest. I’ve enjoyed learning about the Constellation variations and would love to hear any insights the experts here have on this specific variant. Sorry the pictures aren't better, they are the best we could do.

P.S. My uncle had me list it locally in California on Marketplace as well, but I realized I might be out of my depth on the technical nuances and want to be sure his listing is not inaccurate or that the price isn't way off (especially with the rising price of gold). I wanted to come to the experts here to make sure he is describing it accurately to any potential buyers

Dan S · Mon. 1:59pm

Hi and welcome. It sounds like you are trying to get some information in the context of selling the watch. Some of the information you've been given is a bit optimistic. The dial is very poorly repainted and the case is far from unpolished (and a bit rough). The movement looks correct, but exhibits extreme rotor rub.

Unfortunately, because of the condition, the value is mostly in the gold melt value, plus a couple hundred for the movement. The good news is that it is 18k gold, and gold is currently very strong. I would suggest getting an accurate weight on the case, and pricing the watch accordingly.

NorCal_DeLuxe · Mon. 2:06pm

Thank you! This was very helpful. I was told approximately 25-27g of gold, not sure if that's also optimistic.

Dan S · Mon. 2:09pm

NorCal_DeLuxe
Thank you! This was very helpful. I was told approximately 25-27g of gold, not sure if that's also optimistic.

Sounds a bit high to me. I would guesstimate that the movement (and other non-gold parts) probably weight something like 15-20gm, but maybe other members will have a better estimate. I assume you probably have the total weight.

gatorcpa · Mon. 2:12pm

Here is a picture what an original dial would look like for this watch:

Look how sharp the edge of the lugs and the fold of the bezel are in the above example. That is a really nice case. However, the dials on these are very prone to environmental damage as the original lacquer almost always cracked and allowed moisture to tarnish the dial.

Note the difference in the crown also.

25g of 18K gold sounds reasonable to me. These had pretty heavy gold cases. That would be about $2,800 in gold melt, with gold at $4,700 per Troy ounce (31.1 grams).

You must have a watchmaker remove the movement, crown, stem and crystal, none of which are gold, to get an accurate weight.
gatorcpa

hoipolloi · Mon. 2:19pm

The de luxe and grand luxe models have 18k dials which fetch a few hundreds more. This dial is worthless.

MtV · Mon. 2:28pm

Unfortunately, @Dan S is right re condition. The case is polished and beaten up quite a bit.

The total weight of the watch head is ~39g, about 12g for the movement, plus 3g for the dial and a bit for the rest of the parts etc - you‘ll be looking at about 21g in 18k. The scrap price you’ll actually get is a little lower, but even assuming today’s 110$ you‘re at ~2.3k$. Movement, hands etc carry value, but not overly so. Something like 2.6-2.7k will be good.

It’s your prerogative to try to get more, of course, but that’ll be very difficult indeed. While there are quite a number of sellers out there who believe redialed, polished 18k 2852s are worth a number starting with a 3 - hello to those three users who responded with 3.4k+-redial-offers to my 18k-2852-WTB 😁 - there aren’t that many buyers who agree. With the exception of those who don’t know better, of course.

(And out of transparency, may I just say that even though I am in fact looking for an 18k 2852 case, I wouldn’t buy this condition for scrap value. No offense.)

NorCal_DeLuxe · Mon. 2:29pm

gatorcpa
Here is a picture what an original dial would look like for this watch:

Look how sharp the edge of the lugs and the fold of the bezel are in the above example. That is a really nice case. However, the dials on these are very prone to environmental damage as the original lacquer almost always cracked and allowed moisture to tarnish the dial.

Note the difference in the crown also.

25g of 18K gold sounds reasonable to me. These had pretty heavy gold cases. That would be about $2,800 in gold melt, with gold at $4,700 per Troy ounce (31.1 grams).

You must have a watchmaker remove the movement, crown, stem and crystal, none of which are gold, to get an accurate weight.
gatorcpa

Thank you. I will have one of the 3 who inspected it give me an accurate weight. All of them told me it's a Gerlach case which they tell me had more gold than typical Constellations.

gatorcpa · Mon. 2:53pm

NorCal_DeLuxe
All of them told me it's a Gerlach case which they tell me had more gold than typical Constellations.

While they are correct regarding the casemaker, TMK all 18K Ref. 2852 cases were made by Gerlach.

Not sure what they mean by "typical Constellations".
gatorcpa

cristos71 · Mon. 4:24pm

AFAIK 18kt 2852 case is 25g

NorCal_DeLuxe · Mon. 10:07pm

I appreciate all the input, I'm not a watch guy but I love research. I’ve spent the afternoon digging through the archives because the feedback here made me realize I needed to back up what my uncle has with actual data before we make any final decisions.

As you can see in the photo I shared, I already identified the case as an Antoine Gerlach SA (Key 4), but I wanted to find out exactly where that maker fits into the hierarchy. I found multiple references on WatchProSite and a site called Collectability confirming that Gerlach was the master workshop responsible for the early 18k cases for the Patek Philippe Ref. 96 Calatrava. Having that confirmed really changes the conversation for me—it’s clearly a prestige case, even if the face has been refinished.

Regarding the movement, my uncle’s watchmaker actually kept the watch for two weeks to service it and tested it on one of those winding machines for a full day before he gave it back. I’ve been running my own test to verify what the watchmaker told my uncle. After wearing it for 10 hours, it has been sitting on my desk for exactly 26 hours now and it hasn't lost a single second against my computer clock. It’s running exactly as it should.

I'm just trying to help my uncle make an informed call. He had me put it on Marketplace, but based on the comments here he’s considering pulling the ad and investing about $1,000 to have the case shined up and the face properly restored to sell it as a 'mint' piece once gold hits that $6,300 year-end target JP Morgan is forecasting.

Does it make more sense to do the restoration and market it as a 'new' looking watch, or is there still a market for a watch like this as it sits? Thanks for the help, truly appreciate it.

gatorcpa · Mon. 10:20pm

As stated above, the market right now for your watch is totally based on the gold in the case. “Shining” the case isn’t going to do you much good, at least with knowledgeable collectors. Just going to make a bad situation worse. It will never be “mint” again, any more than you can turn a worn out coin into a proof.

You could get a better redial but I think that you will just end up trading dollars, maybe.

You could wait until you can find a decent original dial on eBay, but there are many, many people looking for exactly the same thing as you, so it won’t come cheap.

Bottom line is that it is doubtful that anyone is going to pay $6,300 for a watch with that case, regardless of the dial or condition of the movement.
gatorcpa

SOG53 · Mon. 10:22pm

It will never be mint with a redial and you won’t recoup the 1000 spent. The case is less than average and marketing the case maker won’t help. If you’re selling then best to do nothing and sell as is with full disclosure of redial.

NorCal_DeLuxe · Mon. 11:12pm

gatorcpa
As stated above, the market right now for your watch is totally based on the gold in the case. “Shining” the case isn’t going to do you much good, at least with knowledgeable collectors. Just going to make a bad situation worse. It will never be “mint” again, any more than you can turn a worn out coin into a proof.

You could get a better redial but I think that you will just end up trading dollars, maybe.

You could wait until you can find a decent original dial on eBay, but there are many, many people looking for exactly the same thing as you, so it won’t come cheap.

Bottom line is that it is doubtful that anyone is going to pay $6,300 for a watch with that case, regardless of the dial or condition of the movement.
gatorcpa

Thanks, I'm not asking 6300. JP Morgan is projecting gold to hit $6300 by year end so the value of the gold will go up by about 33%, that was my point with mentioning the rising price of gold.

NorCal_DeLuxe · Mon. 11:30pm

SOG53
It will never be mint with a redial and you won’t recoup the 1000 spent. The case is less than average and marketing the case maker won’t help. If you’re selling then best to do nothing and sell as is with full disclosure of redial.

I hear you. I completely agree that for a purist collector, a redial is a dealbreaker and it will never be mint in that sense.

My interest in the case maker wasn't really about marketing it to a collector who wants original patina. It was more about confirming the quality of what my uncle has. Finding the link between Gerlach and the early Patek Philippe Calatravas just gave him some peace of mind that it’s a high-quality piece worth the effort.

As for the restoration, he is just looking at it as a material asset. It’s hard for me to call it scrap when it’s currently sitting at 0.0s deviation after 28 hours on my desk. For a newbie what do I know but seeing a 70-year-old watch keep time that accurately is pretty impressive, and it makes it feel like it's worth more than just the weight of the gold and doing nothing might actually be the riskiest move.

He's looking at it as an 18k asset that actually works. If he spends $1,000 and it attracts a buyer who wants a solid gold, serviced vintage Omega that looks mint on the wrist, it seems like a better bet than taking the low-ball scrap offers.

I appreciate the reality check on the collector side of things—it helps us weigh the options. Thanks!

cristos71 · Mon. 11:34pm

I'd value as gold weight + €175 hands + €300ish movement. Dial, crown and strap - no value really.

And really no-on cares if the case maker made stuff for PP or anyone else, there is no added value by association here.

To address your point regarding, "low-ball scrap offers" herein lies the problem. With a watch in this condition it's a sad fact that with the recent surge in the gold price the scrap gold value now has overtaken any collector's value. Had the watch been in excellent vintage condition with a sharp case, good dial and all original parts it would be another story.

We are at the moment going through another gold watch extinction event with only the best pieces surviving. Have a look on Ebay at all the loose Omega movements for sale. It has accelerated significantly and I'm sure if studied enough someone way smarter than me would be able to find a high correlation between the rising gold price and the number of movements for sale on Ebay.

NorCal_DeLuxe · Tues. 12:33am

cristos71
I'd value as gold weight + €175 hands + €300ish movement. Dial, crown and strap - no value really.

And really no-on cares if the case maker made stuff for PP or anyone else, there is no added value by association here.

To address your point regarding, "low-ball scrap offers" herein lies the problem. With a watch in this condition it's a sad fact that with the recent surge in the gold price the scrap gold value now has overtaken any collector's value. Had the watch been in excellent vintage condition with a sharp case, good dial and all original parts it would be another story.

We are at the moment going through another gold watch extinction event with only the best pieces surviving. Have a look on Ebay at all the loose Omega movements for sale. It has accelerated significantly and I'm sure if studied enough someone way smarter than me would be able to find a high correlation between the rising gold price and the number of movements for sale on Ebay.

That’s a fair assessment from a parts-bin perspective. I agree that if you strip it down, it’s just a collection of components.

However, I think the point about the gold watch extinction event actually proves my uncle’s point. If most of these 1950s models are being scrapped and the movements are being sold loose on eBay, then wouldn't a fully intact, serviced 18k Gerlach survivor become a much rarer bird?

You mentioned that someone smarter than you could find the correlation between the rising gold price and the scrap rate—that’s exactly what I’m looking at with the JP Morgan $6,300/oz year end target. If the extinction event continues, I think it would be expected the supply of high-quality, serviced vintage gold pieces will drop right as the material value peaks.

My uncle is not looking to sell it for parts; he's looking at it as a survivor that’s outperforming its scrap reputation. In his view if you have a 1954 Ferrari with a repainted door, you don't scrap the car or leave it in the garage—you tune the engine, polish it up, and drive it. I appreciate the reality check on the parts value, though! This is great stuff. You guys are super helpful, thanks!

MtV · Tues. 2:05am

Look, I understand where you’re coming from with your thoughts. And by all means, give it a try if you like. Nobody here is stopping you.

We can’t predict the future. We can only tell you what we know, and that’s that there’s never been a point at which improving the quality of a redial for a significant investment made sense in terms of value of the watch. It just doesn’t.

A redial means the watch is worth scrap plus parts. That the movement runs great is nice - so it’s worth 300$ instead of 200$. That’s the difference in value really.

No matter how much you explain your point, you won’t find anyone here who’ll say „You know what - sounds logical, go for it.“ Our experience tells us otherwise. I’d happily bet money against it. Don’t get me wrong please, not trying to be hurtful. I’m just using clear words to deliver a message that, despite our efforts, hasn’t arrived yet.

Whatever you decide - good luck on the journey!

theluckyluke · Tues. 2:13am

Don’t overthink this. If you believe that gold prices will rise, keep it and sell it later. The value is closely linked to gold as highlighted above. Unfortunately this isn’t a piece that justifies much premium to gold due to the condition.

If you’re unsure about gold prices and don’t need the money, find someone in the family to enjoy it as is. There might be sentimental value and this will go forever once you sell it.

Peemacgee · Tues. 2:33am

Car analogies are rarely useful when discussing watches - but to continue your theme.
The engine is good but the body is sufficiently deformed that it doesn’t look like the car it should - and polishing it would only make things worse.
The only thing to do would be to replace the body, which in this case is the most valuable component.
(There is no car analogy for a watch dial)

So, unfortunately, it is now just an old gold watch with a repainted dial (with a great heritage) and no amount of refurbishment will bring it back to being a survivor that collectors want (which is where any premium value lies).

So, as others have said, the value is in the gold content plus the other parts that collectors might want to repair their watches.
Don’t spend any more money on the watch as you will not recoup the cost.
I think most of us would have advised against spending money on a service if you knew you were going to sell it.

As to when you sell to maximise the gold value - that is in the lap of the gods.

Input Requested: Ref. 2852/2853 SC 18K - "CHRONOMETRE" Dial & Family History

NorCal_DeLuxe

Dan S

NorCal_DeLuxe

Dan S

gatorcpa

hoipolloi

MtV

NorCal_DeLuxe

gatorcpa

cristos71

NorCal_DeLuxe

gatorcpa

SOG53

NorCal_DeLuxe

NorCal_DeLuxe

cristos71

NorCal_DeLuxe

MtV

theluckyluke

Peemacgee

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