Geneva Results Discussion November 2021

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After this btw, the elves are going to be out there trying to assemble 2915s, making more fake listings, cooking up 321 dials in ovens to get that same tropical patina, the money does invite that

You are definitely not wrong with the brown dials and cooking in Ovens..... There were long discussions a few years ago on a German Rolex forum about which temperature and time span will turn Rolex bezel inserts into all shades of colours. And that has evolved since ....
 
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You are definitely not wrong with the brown dials and cooking in Ovens..... There were long discussions a few years ago on a German Rolex forum about which temperature and time span will turn Rolex bezel inserts into all shades of colours. And that has evolved since ....
Remember back when the first Patrizzi dial 16520 Daytona sold for an eyebrow raising amount in the mid 2000s, and within a few months they were getting baked in ovens everywhere and auctions houses were stuffed with them
 
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This seems like a reasonable question, what would make this watch so desirable? The brown dial is obviously coveted by many but even if this has not received any external assistance to reach this colour it is not the way the watch was first manufactured/sold. So what holds greater value? Something that is as close to the day it was made or something that displays its manufacturing imperfections? I may be in the minority but I know which I would prefer.

The other thing that interests me is where has this watch been over the last x number of years and is there any previous pictures of its gradual change in colour; it would be really interesting to see how it developed. The dial is very uniform for one that has discoloured and is certainly attractive but I just don’t understand why it would command such a premium.

I like your phrase " external assistance...."
 
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Exactly what Stonestone wrote below.

May I also suggest everyone to cool it on the anti-Chinese undertones with the suggestions of money laundering and non-payment. I'm no fan of the Chinese government, however with a 1.4 billion hugely diverse population, and the highest density of billionaires, an already huge and growing interest in watchmaking and collecting, I don't think some of the comments are acceptable.

This is not money laundering. There are far better, less conspicuous, more liquid ways out there to do that. As you note there were two other bidders willing to pay close to this amount for the same item. People may joke about Chinese buyers but they have some of the deepest pockets in the world and have become a major force in the auction world. And this may also be a Hong Kong buyer, who (unlike buyers from mainland China) would have no qualms about flashing a prized catch such as this in the face of Xi Jinping’s “common prosperity” campaign.
 
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I find it fascinating that the buyer is Chinese (whether that means from Hong Kong, mainland China or elsewhere). My experience (and I live in Hong Kong) is that collectors here are very focused on Rolex, and then PP and a handful of haute horlogerie manufacturers. You rarely hear the big money collectors talking about Speedmaster or Omega more generally.
 
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I find it fascinating that the buyer is Chinese (whether that means from Hong Kong, mainland China or elsewhere). My experience (and I live in Hong Kong) is that collectors here are very focused on Rolex, and then PP and a handful of haute horlogerie manufacturers. You rarely hear the big money collectors talking about Speedmaster or Omega more generally.
As I said people with so much money get bored easily, or they may have collected all the Vintage Rolex/PP they want, and want to move to another field. This will make big headline, and may attract a lot of attention to vintage speedmasters.
 
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And this may also be a Hong Kong buyer, who (unlike buyers from mainland China) would have no qualms about flashing a prized catch such as this in the face of Xi Jinping’s “common prosperity” campaign.

The auction house was specifying, all day long, when a bidder was from HK or “China.” I took them to be genuine and consistent.

People may joke about Chinese buyers but they have some of the deepest pockets in the world and have become a major force in the auction world.

For clarity of intent, and I can’t speak for anyone else, but for my own part I was not speaking lightly when I said:

In any number of contexts, in my experience, the Chinese have very different social norms around money and making payments due.

I am a partner at a global top 50 law firm, with offices in China (and HK) and have represented many prominent Chinese companies over the years, on several occasions accumulating multi-million dollar bills. When it comes to retrieving payment for those bills, there has been few parallel experiences from any other country - and, I have never heard of a non-Chinese law firm with a notably different experience (though Chinese law firms, apparently, may be treated differently). I am placing no intrinsic morality to that circumstance, only recounting it as a known and observed difference in business culture.

Separately and as a vignette of what are, in my experience, different social norms around money in the west vs. China: I was once in a business meeting, and during a momentary break I mentioned off hand that I had just closed on the purchase of a new house. Without missing a beat and with no particular inflection, the counter-party’s business lead casually asked “how much money did you pay?” Being from the west, I was momentarily taken aback by the question - until my Chinese colleague explained that openly questioning the monitory value of such things, even if/by strangers, is essentially commonplace (at least enough that my Chinese colleague thought it a complete misunderstanding). Here again, I’m ascribing no intrinsic morality to this circumstance, but instead - almost sociologically - noting the difference in social norms.

May I also suggest everyone to cool it on the anti-Chinese undertones with the suggestions of money laundering and non-payment. I'm no fan of the Chinese government, however with a 1.4 billion hugely diverse population, and the highest density of billionaires, an already huge and growing interest in watchmaking and collecting, I don't think some of the comments are acceptable.

To be fair, the money-laundering comments have I think been entirely agnostic to geographic location; instead, the “bit” is simply that anyone paying $3.5M for that watch has got to be up to something (granting a certain degree of tongue-in-cheek to the discussion).

Further, while in this instance the discussion has been about China because the winner was Chinese, China is far from the only country known to have disproportionate numbers of publicized disagreements with auctions houses for “failures” to pay (Russia, India, the Middle East, South America, Indonesia - may have all raised the same commentary). Though in many instances, there were likely as much “failure” of the auction house to navigate certain cultural differences along the way.

That said, I appreciate your injection and caution that we might be more careful in mentioning these important nuances so as not to be mistaken.
 
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I will not comment on 2915's
I will not comment on 2915's
I will not comment on 2915's
I will not comment on 2915's

...is it just me or are the hands on the 2998 short?
 
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CHF 2,550,000
USD 2,790,000

PLUS premium (which is on a sliding scale at this level need to work it out) but estimate usd $3.4m
Bidders from Oman, HK, Texas and more

Fierce bidding from multiple bidders, sailing past high estimate CHF 120,000

worlds most expensive speedmaster



https://www.phillips.com/detail/omega/CH080221/53
Might need to adjust the price chart a little.
 
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I find it fascinating that the buyer is Chinese (whether that means from Hong Kong, mainland China or elsewhere). My experience (and I live in Hong Kong) is that collectors here are very focused on Rolex, and then PP and a handful of haute horlogerie manufacturers. You rarely hear the big money collectors talking about Speedmaster or Omega more generally.
I second that, nobodys into omega in Hong Kong, i wear a 2915 on the street safely, nobody would look at it twice.
 
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Can we finally stop feeling like we might need to explain why we love speedmasters?

No apologies necessary.
 
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I second that, nobodys into omega in Hong Kong, i wear a 2915 on the street safely, nobody would look at it twice.
pics (of your 2915)? 😁
 
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The auction house was specifying, all day long, when a bidder was from HK or “China.” I took them to be genuine and consistent.

Thanks, I did not know that. I just read that the three bidders who chased this were placing bids from Oman, Texas and Hong Kong.


That said, I appreciate your injection and caution that we might be more careful in mentioning these important nuances so as not to be mistaken.

Agreed. Nuance is good. We will see soon whether the transaction is completed or not so not much point in debating the likelihood of that.

I just simply note I have seen extraordinary amounts of money spent for all sorts of things by Chinese/HK buyers, from luxury real estate to Zao Wu-ki paintings, diamonds and, of course, watches. The amount in question is not unusually large in comparison to the price tag one often sees for these other items. What's unusual is that it's been spent on a vintage Speedmaster.

That said, I have seen buyers from Asia at art and watch auctions in Hong Kong accompanied by advisors who are there to help them decide what to bid on. I was at one a few months ago where the advisor (a European man) was explaining the various merits of different watches to a young Chinese woman. He picked up a Speedmaster 2998-2 that I was eyeing and whispered to her about it for some time, and my heart dropped a bit. Fortunately, there was only one other bidder when the lot came up and I'm pretty sure it wasn't her. I ended up with the watch.

Maybe these buyers are starting to consider more seriously the next big thing. Or maybe the sale of this 2915-1 doesn't go through. Or it goes through and turns out be a one-off. We'll find out.
 
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This can be done much more easily with a Nautilus than a vintage Speedy.

Frankly I would just buy a bunch of Submariners if I were looking to launder money. Smaller denominations as it were.
 
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Frankly I would just buy a bunch of Submariners if I were looking to launder money. Smaller denominations as it were.

"Here's my money. Give me anything in gold that says Rolex. I don't need the box."
 
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I second that, nobodys into omega in Hong Kong, i wear a 2915 on the street safely, nobody would look at it twice.
If the HK/China collectors want, they can promote anything as the next big thing within their circle, next thing you know everyone will talk about speedmasters. Your 2915 will not be safe anymore.
 
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If the HK/China collectors want, they can promote anything as the next big thing within their circle, next thing you know everyone will talk about speedmasters. Your 2915 will not be safe anymore.
Hong Kong has its problems, but street crime isn't one of them. I've seen people straphanging on the subway with a gold Patek showing...
 
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All of a sudden...
where did all these unique, incredibly rare, one-of-a-kind early and very well-preserved tropical Speedmasters come from?
👎 😕