Community Stories

Fake Speedymoon on ebay

CanberraOmega
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M moonphaselover
Good detective work !

I went to this site for a quick
estimate of the year based
on the serial number, and MY
serial number made NO sense.

OMEGA serial numbers & production dates
omega_serial_number2.jpg omega_serial_number3.jpg
Older Omega serial numbers are located on the watch movement.

Omega no longer publicises serial numbers to help counter fakes, but simple arithmetic suggests that around 3 million Omega watches are made each year, from that our estimate for 2009-2011 are included in the chart below.
YEAR Movement number Movementcalibre*
2011 93 mil.
2010 90 mil.
2009 87 mil.
2008 84 mil.
2007 81 mil.
2006 78 mil.
2005 72 mil.
2004 70 mil.
2003 68 mil.
2002 65.5 mil.
2001 65 mil.
2000 61 mil.
1999 59.8 mil.
1998 56 mil.
1995 55 mil.
1993 54 mil.
1991 53 mil.
1989 51 mil.
1986 50 mil.
1985 49 mil.
1984 48 mil.
1982 45 mil.
1980 44 mil.
1979 42 mil.
1978 41 mil.
1977 40 mil.
1975 39 mil.
1974 38 mil.
1973 36 mil. 1010
1972 34 mil.
1971 33 mil. 1040

YEAR Movement number Movementcalibre*
1970 30 mil. 1250
1969 28 mil. 980
1968 26 mil.
1967 25 mil. 730
1966 23 mil. 711
1965 22 mil.
1964 21 mil. 700
1963 20 mil. 660, 670
1962 19 mil. 690
1961 18 mil. 590, 592, 593
1960 17 mil. 245, 550, 600
1958 16 mil. 284, 501
1956 15 mil. 267, 455, 470, 480
1954 14 mil. 455
1952 13 mil.
1950 12 mil. 410, 420
1947 11 mil. 210
1944 10 mil. 100, 260, 280
1943 9.5 mil. 300, 330, 360
1939 9 mil. 220, 240
1935 8.5 mil.
1930 7.5 mil.
1925 7 mil.
1923 6 mil.
1916 5 mil.
1912 4 mil.
1908 3 mil.
1905 2.5 mil.
1902 2 mil.
1900 1 mil.
1895 0.50 mil.
someone will chime in, but in general, that chart doesn't apply to speedies (cal 321, 861, etc), and you should use this one:
http://www.chronomaddox.com/romans.html
i'm not sure if the same rules apply for moonphases though?
 
Archer
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Foo2rama Foo2rama
I think I might be able to shed some light on that movement... Its a Lemania 873 movement that appears to be dressed up. You can see the 873 and Lemania hallmark in this picture https://omegaforums.net/attachments/dsc_0599-jpg.228046/

Now that is the movement base for the 321 and identical to the 861? The reason I am calling it dressed up is that I cannot find any omega with the Lemania hallmark on it. The only examples I can find with markings there are the Omega Logo and 861. Like this example https://omegaforums.net/threads/1969-omega-speedmaster-pre-moon-transitional-145-022-cal-861.15356/

I might be wrong, but google search and seeing 68-71 examples with the Omega logo and lower serial numbers perhaps someone with more knowledge can clear up the movement..

It's a Lemania movement clearly...or at least a Lemania main plate...



Omega did not use Lemania main plates, so this is clearly a put together watch. Not sure what term you want to use for it - franken...fake...bitsa....I think an argument could be made for any of these, but it's certainly not an Omega in my opinion.

Foo2rama Foo2rama
@moonphaselover you are correct the moonphase is a small module placed over this movement to make the Moon work.

The moon phase added to either the 861 or 1861 (making them the 866 and 1866 respectively) does not involve the use of any module - here is a typical Speedmaster dial side for reference:



And this is an 1866 with the Moon Phase added:



The term "module" implies that there is a self contained sub-assembly of parts that can be removed just by taking out a couple of screws, but the moon phase is made of up several individual parts that are added to the dial side. In contrast this is a complications module on a watch I serviced, and the top plate of the module has been removed to repair something, but this whole unit can come off the watch, so it is a true module:



Cheers, Al
 
M
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And MORE thanks to Archer and the OzOmega man !

I've learned more about "my" watch
in two days, than the previous 10 years !.

Scott
 
dennisthemenace
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M moonphaselover
I now have an appointment with my
watchmaker(s) for this coming Tuesday,
and maybe we can yank the hood open,
and have a look at the motor in this thing......

BTW, Just for fun, I have wound
the watch, and it runs quite well.

The date and moonphase properly
advance at midnight.

If this is NOT a moonphase watch,
how can this be so ?

Any bets on how this is happening,
or what we will find inside ?
The moonphase indicator on a genuine 866 movement doesn't advance at midnight, it advances 12 hours after the date advances.
 
M
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dennisthemenace dennisthemenace
The moonphase indicator on a genuine 866 movement
doesn't advance at midnight, it advances 12 hours
after the date advances.

Good advise !

I checked and:

1) The date and moon advance 12 hours apart
(and that's hard to see with my eyes !)

2) The functions advance with the pushers.

It makes me wonder if this is an 866 movement with Lemania parts....
 
M
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I read on the internet
(So it must be true, right ?)
that Lemania movements were
used in the Speedmasters.

The years that happened are a little unclear........

Could be that, in the early times, Lemania movements
were used, and NOT marked as OMEGA, and gradually
Lemania movements marked Omega were used, and then
finally, the movements were either Lemania marked as Omega,
of made by and marked by Lemania.

I could see this in the 60's............
 
abrod520
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M moonphaselover
I could see this in the 60's...........

I've never seen that, but it's unlikely that this left the factory this way, as the Speedmaster Moonphase didn't appear until the 1980s
 
Foo2rama
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@Archer I think answered the movement question conclusively. The movement was a Lemania out of something or at least the plate was and then Omega parts where put on it. Straight swap as the parts are identical.

Keep in mind back then and still today watch companies would license movements or buy movements from other watch makers or movement makers. Even Rolex purchased movements from other manufacturers while selling movements to other watch companies. The famous Daytona had a zenith movement up until recently.

Sometimes the movements where straight dropped in with no changes. Sometimes they are dressed up, sometimes modified heavily. @Archer though said no omega movement would carry the Lemania hallmark.

Hopefully @moonphaselover this helps put things into perspective.
 
M
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abrod520 abrod520
I've never seen that, but it's unlikely that this left the factory this way, as the Speedmaster Moonphase didn't appear until the 1980s

I think that is exactly the point !
 
M
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Well yes, I am trying to get a "perspective adjustment" on this !

(As a little sidelight, part of my "day job" is
restoring old Grand Prix racing motorcycles.

I had some initial questions about one
particular bike that we in the shop called "242."

On this particular type of bike, there was a
serial number on the frame
(the VIN or Vehicle Identification Number)

There was also a number on the main casting of the engine.
That was called the engine number.

When delivered from the factory, the number
on the frame and the engine were the same.

Imagine that the watch case had a serial number,
and the movement also had a serial number

#242 was a question to us, since I eventually had
TWO (2) frames, and three (3) engines, all with the
same serial number ! All numbers properly stamped.

In the denouement, I did my due diligence on the "ownership
trail," and found answers.

[doing the research was worth the time, since nowadays,
these bikes can sell, used and 40 years old, for near
$100,000]

The original bike blew an engine, and the factory supplied
an identical engine, with the serial number
properly stamped in the correct place.

Eventually, the bike was crashed, and the frame
was replaced with a unit properly stamped from the factory.

At the end, another factory-stamped engine was supplied by the factory.)



Foo2rama Foo2rama
@Archer I think answered the movement question conclusively. The movement was a Lemania out of something or at least the plate was and then Omega parts where put on it. Straight swap as the parts are identical.

Keep in mind back then and still today watch companies would license movements or buy movements from other watch makers or movement makers. Even Rolex purchased movements from other manufacturers while selling movements to other watch companies. The famous Daytona had a zenith movement up until recently.

Sometimes the movements where straight dropped in with no changes. Sometimes they are dressed up, sometimes modified heavily. @Archer though said no omega movement would carry the Lemania hallmark.

Hopefully @moonphaselover this helps put things into perspective.
 
Archer
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Foo2rama Foo2rama
@Archer I think answered the movement question conclusively. The movement was a Lemania out of something or at least the plate was and then Omega parts where put on it. Straight swap as the parts are identical.

Keep in mind back then and still today watch companies would license movements or buy movements from other watch makers or movement makers. Even Rolex purchased movements from other manufacturers while selling movements to other watch companies. The famous Daytona had a zenith movement up until recently.

Sometimes the movements where straight dropped in with no changes. Sometimes they are dressed up, sometimes modified heavily. @Archer though said no omega movement would carry the Lemania hallmark.

Hopefully @moonphaselover this helps put things into perspective.

"perhaps someone with more knowledge can clear up the movement."

I was just doing as you wished. I service these for a living, and having serviced hundreds of Speedmasters, I'm pretty confident in saying this is a franken.

Cheers, Al
 
sky21
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Well Scott, I think your honesty with the listing should be applauded. When you were presented with some new information regarding some errors in your original listing, you took it down and tried to learn. I honestly have no idea if there will be a market for your watch at the price point you have set, but I wish you good luck with your sale.
 
M
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I have no idea what the true price point is going to be.

Suppose I'll just start high, and do a "dutch auction"
by gradually going lower until it either sells, or finds
a home on my wrist, where it spent today.

Thanks for the trust !

Scott
 
dennisthemenace
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Well, actually your watch is not a chronometer as stated in your listing.
And I think you are being rather economical with the truth regarding the bezel.
My 2p's worth.
Edited:
 
M
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You are probably correct about the "chronometer,"
NOT the same as"chronometric."

I will change that.

I"ll also look into the bezel again........



dennisthemenace dennisthemenace
Well, actually your watch is not a chronometer as stated in your listing.
And I think you are being rather economical with the truth regarding the bezel.
My 2p's worth.
 
M
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See is the new wording is acceptable.

Notice that I NEVER use the word OMEGA
in connection with the watch.......


dennisthemenace dennisthemenace
Well, actually your watch is not a chronometer as stated in your listing.
And I think you are being rather economical with the truth regarding the bezel.
My 2p's worth.
 
M
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I received this polite note from an eBay buyer in the UK.


Hello,
I'm sorry to say your Speedmaster is a fake ,
the dezel is a fake dial us a fake omega never
used that movment it the watch ..please remove
or I will report this listing to Ebay for removal .
Thanks Silverstone 15

Here is my response:

Silverstone:

I appreciate your comments and
they have been considered.

NOWHERE in the ad do I use the word
OMEGA in connection with this watch.

In the Omega Forums thread about this watch,
in which some Omega experts participate, some
have essentially declared that the ad is suitable for this watch.

I understand that this watch was put together by an amateur
watchmaker with parts that he had available.

When I first put the watch on eBay, I was unaware
of the problem with fake watches.

After communicating with the forum, I
talked to eBay about what is allowed.

They told me that as long as I described the
watch accurately and did not use any brand names,
that I could put the watch on eBay.

If you have certain SPECIFIC issues with either
the ad or the watch, please communicate them to me,
and I'll try to accommodate you....

I am trying to do this the right way.

Scott
 
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