Fake Speedymoon on ebay

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Gimmie a break !

All this stuff was probably
done in the mid-90's,when the
watch wasworth $200 on a good day,
and who would have cared !

NOW, a perfect one might
fetch $7,500, and so yes,
it WOULD make a difference.


what have they done to the watch???!!!! atrocity
 
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I pulled it, and kept it off while we
figured out maybe what it is - or was......

I have put it back out there, so everybody can see
all the pictures and get a context for the visuals.

If there is "criticism" for the
"patter," I am happy to see it.

@moonphaselover you might want to pull it. Then show us pictures of the movement.

The bezel is interesting but alas I don't think a dot under 70 with a dot over 90 ever existed. But their might be a chance the parts are worth more separately.

The case under examination looks wrong, the pushers never had a curved cutout as you see on your example. And as noted the dial has multiple problems and does not match anything out there.
 
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Hey Scott, for every vocal detractor there's probably ten of us who are fascinated by this thread! Even more so now I'd think.

I think this watch is a "bitsa" with perhaps a refinished dial. The bezel is also refinished, with a hallmark (dot under 70 which is modern, but dot over 90 which is very valuable vintage) that would suggest an intent to deceive by the creator of this watch.

I see a moonphase (re)built with parts of a very early 861 movement (probably from a 145.022-68) and the caseback from a 145.022-69

The good news is, that caseback is somewhat valuable in its own right! Looks to be in good condition too. If you put that up on eBay by itself, you'll probably get more than what you originally bought / traded the watch for.
 
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Fruits:

Take a look at the additional photo's,
and see if anything triggers your memories.

I think I bought, and returned this a while ago.

Movement photos will confirm. It may well be a different watch, but really how many can there be?

I bought it from the deceased owners daughter who after I told her it was wrong, immediately gave my money back. She was adamant she didn't want to deceive anyone and said her late father was a watch tinkerer, who must have cobbled it together in his shed.

The one I bought was a heavily modified 69 case. With what started as an 861 with many non omega or modified parts inside.

It seems a lot of work for not much benefit
 
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Ab Rod: The inside of the back looks
pretty "normal" to me too. Was this
back used - with those stampings - on
any other watch ?

Could the "engraving" on the back
be from an early model, or what ?

Hey Scott, for every vocal detractor there's probably ten of us who are fascinated by this thread! Even more so now I'd think.

I think this watch is a "bitsa" with perhaps a refinished dial. The bezel is also refinished, with a hallmark (dot under 70 which is modern, but dot over 90 which is very valuable vintage) that would suggest an intent to deceive by the creator of this watch.

I see a moonphase (re)built with parts of a very early 861 movement (probably from a 145.022-68) and the caseback from a 145.022-69

The good news is, that caseback is somewhat valuable in its own right! Looks to be in good condition too. If you put that up on eBay by itself, you'll probably get more than what you originally bought / traded the watch for.
 
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Actually, my watchmaker demonstrated that
ALL the functions work.......

Hence that is why the chronograph functions do not work. Most replicas have non working chronographs. They are just there for looks only.
Caseback is for an earlier 1969 speedy (replica caseback to boot) engraving looks laser etched.
 
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Could the "engraving" on the back
be from an early model, or what ?

It's from a "pre-moon" Speedmaster meaning designed before the moon landing. So yes, it's an early model, but it predates the Speedmaster Moonphase by at least a decade.
 
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Scott,

You got a lot going on here.

Not sure how to describe this,
it looks like you have authentic
parts from various speedmasters,
along with parts that are not authentic.

I tend to agree.

It looks like the back is authentic (Omega)
but maybe not "correct" to this watch.

(In "our" language, the back that originally
came on the watch would be both "correct,"
and also "original to the watch.")

If the back is "not correct," it can still be OMEGA.

The case MIGHT be an early Speedmaster
that has been "bored" for the moon and
the date function pushers.

Omega non-the-less ?

I am willing to believe the "motor"
is an authentic OMEGA movement,
and who knows....original to this case ?

Almost certainly the dial(s) and bezel-insert
(notice the slight language change) have been
refinished. Not a terrific job, but OK
for the 1990's. on a (max) $1,000 watch.

Here's an interesting line of inquiry:

How "REAL" is this watch ?

(Momentary segue.....In motor bikes, we have
certain rules:

1) If you have a frame, you have a bike.
a) The VIN and the tag and title go with
the frame.
b) Motor has a number, but is NOT by definition
the bike, 'cause motors - like movements - can
be changed INTERNALLY, with no outer signs.)

Right now, without "pulling the movement(s)",
what we see is this:

1) Back almost certainly Omega.
2) Case almost certainly Omega.
3) Crystal and Bezel Omega underneath the re-finishing.
4) Visible movement OMEGA.

So: So far we see a lot of stuff that is
either INCORRECT for this watch,
or has been refinished, or has been modified.

It's maybe ALL Omega parts, but certainly
Omega never saw it in that form......

Kind of like a 1934 Ford, with NASCAR brakes, VIPER drive train.

It's a "Vintage Hot Rod."..........
 
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I like that thinking:

Could be as simple as having a pre-moon Speedmaster,
and access to a "junk" moonphase that had a "donor"
motor and dials.

Maybe the later "moonphase watch" got run
over by a car: scratched the dials, cracked the case, etc.

Modify the existing early case to accept the
"moonphase" parts, like the dials and "pushers."

Stick the "motor(s) " into the early case.

Presto: presentable "later" moonphase
for small money - if you had the parts
on hand.

There's the "hot rod" concept again.

Maybe I'll call this watch - whatever
we decide it is - "The Hot Rod."

It's from a "pre-moon" Speedmaster
meaning designed before the moon landing.

So yes, it's an early model, but it predates the
Speedmaster Moonphase by at least a decade.
 
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That caseback is genuine, but not an original vintage part. (it's a replacement that Omega sells) Yours is, and is more valuable as a result
 
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WOW........Some GOOD news..... !.........

That caseback is genuine,
but not an original vintage part.
(it's a replacement that Omega sells) Yours is,
and is more valuable as a result
 
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I think I might be able to shed some light on that movement... Its a Lemania 873 movement that appears to be dressed up. You can see the 873 and Lemania hallmark in this picture https://omegaforums.net/attachments/dsc_0599-jpg.228046/

Now that is the movement base for the 321 and identical to the 861? The reason I am calling it dressed up is that I cannot find any omega with the Lemania hallmark on it. The only examples I can find with markings there are the Omega Logo and 861. Like this example https://omegaforums.net/threads/1969-omega-speedmaster-pre-moon-transitional-145-022-cal-861.15356/

I might be wrong, but google search and seeing 68-71 examples with the Omega logo and lower serial numbers perhaps someone with more knowledge can clear up the movement.

@moonphaselover you are correct the moonphase is a small module placed over this movement to make the Moon work.

So... Now that you have the caseback on ebay... I got a great idea for you and what you can do with this watch now. Buy a display caseback for about 120 on ebay. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Crystal-cas...hash=item2a640684c9:m:m1bsUs1_fxO9djjUIbG9PNg

Maybe replace the dial with http://www.ebay.com/itm/Omega-Speed...237096?hash=item58d5b083a8:g:vUEAAOSwQYZWun9T or leave the one on it. But replace that bezel unless it looks better in person.

Then sell it linked to this thread, and with what the current caseback will go for you should have done well for yourself.

Going through ebay you could basically build this watch for under 1000 from parts available, which is what I assume someone did when this was created.
Edited:
 
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Thank you.....

This looks like a lot of good advise.

The watch seems to be calling out
for a CLA (Cleaning, lubrication
and adjustment)

Who do we recommend, and
what might I expect to pay ?

I think I might be able to shed some light on that movement... Its a Lemania 873 movement that appears to be dressed up. You can see the 873 and Lemania hallmark in this picture https://omegaforums.net/attachments/dsc_0599-jpg.228046/

Now that is the movement base for the 321 and identical to the 861? The reason I am calling it dressed up is that I cannot find any omega with the Lemania hallmark on it. The only examples I can find with markings there are the Omega Logo and 861. Like this example https://omegaforums.net/threads/1969-omega-speedmaster-pre-moon-transitional-145-022-cal-861.15356/

I might be wrong, but google search and seeing 68-71 examples with the Omega logo and lower serial numbers perhaps someone with more knowledge can clear up the movement.

@moonphaselover you are correct the moonphase is a small module placed over this movement to make the Moon work.

So... Now that you have the caseback on ebay... I got a great idea for you and what you can do with this watch now. Buy a display caseback for about 120 on ebay. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Crystal-cas...hash=item2a640684c9:m:m1bsUs1_fxO9djjUIbG9PNg

Maybe replace the dial with http://www.ebay.com/itm/Omega-Speed...237096?hash=item58d5b083a8:g:vUEAAOSwQYZWun9T or leave the one on it. But replace that bezel unless it looks better in person.

Then sell it linked to this thread, and with what that caseback will go for you should have down well for yourself.

Going through ebay you could basically build this watch for under 1000 from parts available, which is what I assume someone did when this was created.
 
This website may earn commission from Ebay sales.
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Good detective work !

I went to this site for a quick
estimate of the year based
on the serial number, and MY
serial number made NO sense.

OMEGA serial numbers & production dates
omega_serial_number2.jpg
omega_serial_number3.jpg
Older Omega serial numbers are located on the watch movement.

Omega no longer publicises serial numbers to help counter fakes, but simple arithmetic suggests that around 3 million Omega watches are made each year, from that our estimate for 2009-2011 are included in the chart below.
YEAR Movement number Movementcalibre*
2011 93 mil.
2010
90 mil.
2009
87 mil.
2008 84 mil.
2007 81 mil.
2006 78 mil.
2005 72 mil.
2004 70 mil.
2003 68 mil.
2002 65.5 mil.
2001 65 mil.
2000 61 mil.
1999 59.8 mil.
1998 56 mil.
1995 55 mil.
1993 54 mil.
1991 53 mil.
1989 51 mil.
1986 50 mil.
1985 49 mil.
1984 48 mil.
1982 45 mil.
1980 44 mil.
1979 42 mil.
1978 41 mil.
1977 40 mil.
1975 39 mil.
1974 38 mil.
1973 36 mil. 1010
1972 34 mil.
1971 33 mil. 1040

YEAR Movement number Movementcalibre*
1970 30 mil. 1250
1969 28 mil. 980
1968 26 mil.
1967 25 mil. 730
1966 23 mil. 711
1965 22 mil.
1964 21 mil. 700
1963 20 mil. 660, 670
1962 19 mil. 690
1961 18 mil. 590, 592, 593
1960 17 mil. 245, 550, 600
1958 16 mil. 284, 501
1956 15 mil. 267, 455, 470, 480
1954 14 mil. 455
1952 13 mil.
1950 12 mil. 410, 420
1947 11 mil. 210
1944 10 mil. 100, 260, 280
1943 9.5 mil. 300, 330, 360
1939 9 mil. 220, 240
1935 8.5 mil.
1930 7.5 mil.
1925 7 mil.
1923 6 mil.
1916 5 mil.
1912 4 mil.
1908 3 mil.
1905 2.5 mil.
1902 2 mil.
1900 1 mil.
1895 0.50 mil.











I think I might be able to shed some light on that movement... Its a Lemania 873 movement that appears to be dressed up. You can see the 873 and Lemania hallmark in this picture https://omegaforums.net/attachments/dsc_0599-jpg.228046/

Now that is the movement base for the 321 and identical to the 861? The reason I am calling it dressed up is that I cannot find any omega with the Lemania hallmark on it. The only examples I can find with markings there are the Omega Logo and 861. Like this example https://omegaforums.net/threads/1969-omega-speedmaster-pre-moon-transitional-145-022-cal-861.15356/

.
 
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I found this remark:

http://www.watch-wiki.net/index.php?title=Lemania

The Lemania Calibre 1873 (Omega Calibre 861) became
particularly famous with the
Omega Speedmaster, which in
1962 was selected by NASA for manned space flights and on
21 July
1969 accompanied Neil Armstrong's first steps on the moon.

I find myself wondering if this Lemania / Omega movement is so
early that OMEGA kept the Lemania numbering system deep in the watch,
while having OMEGA noted only on the bridges........?

Now that is the movement base for the 321 and identical to the 861? The reason I am calling it dressed up is that I cannot find any omega with the Lemania hallmark on it. The only examples I can find with markings there are the Omega Logo and 861. Like this example https://omegaforums.net/threads/1969-omega-speedmaster-pre-moon-transitional-145-022-cal-861.15356/

.
 
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I found this remark:

http://www.watch-wiki.net/index.php?title=Lemania

The Lemania Calibre 1873 (Omega Calibre 861) became
particularly famous with the
Omega Speedmaster, which in
1962 was selected by NASA for manned space flights and on
21 July
1969 accompanied Neil Armstrong's first steps on the moon.

I find myself wondering if this Lemania / Omega movement is so
early that OMEGA kept the Lemania numbering system deep in the watch,
while having OMEGA noted only on the bridges........?

Right... here is some extra info... the 321 (older movement) is based on the Lemania 1873 but it was not until 68-69 that the 861 was in Speedies, I think the one Armstrong took up had a 321 though.
 
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And this:

A new chronograph caliber appeared in 1965—the Lémania 1873– and this was the basis of the Omega 861 subsequently used in the Speedmaster Professional from late 1967 onward. Differences from the 321 included the switch from a column wheel to a shuttle/cam chronograph mechanism, eliminating the screws in the balance wheel, increasing the beat to 21,600 bph, incorporating a flat balance spring and changing the shape of the main bridge.

http://iwmagazine.com/news-and-now/20110705/the-lemania-legacy-2/

So, maybe this is a combined Lemania / Omega movement ?