F1 2020

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simonsays

·Aug 28, 2020

Vercingetorix

That graph is fairly misleading. A high performance engine will run very rich on that graph to keep it cool. Leaning the engine off will increase power but increase temperature and wear. Increasing performance would mean leaning off the mix not enriching it.

 

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Vercingetorix

·Aug 28, 2020·Spam Risk

The graph is not misleading. It is a fact that a slightly rich mixture gives more power.

 

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simonsays

·Aug 28, 2020

Vercingetorix

The graph is not misleading. It is a fact that a slightly rich mixture gives more power.

Then your interpretation of it is. High performance engines run richer than ideal. So to increase power you must lean off the mix and not enrich it.

 

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Scarecrow Boat

·Aug 28, 2020

simonsays

Increasing performance would mean leaning off the mix not enriching it.

Leaning an engine (essentially starving it) will not increase performance.

Just for an additional perspective- F1 2020 the video game utilizes Lean and Rich exactly how @Vercingetorix and I are describing. Since they boast the most realistic experience with game engineers spending thousands of hours to build it off of real data, I imagine you can trust the details.

As a pilot I 100% do not get more power off a lean engine. Engine to Engine lean and rich function the same way. There are performance gains from balancing out Rich and Lean and that’s generally where the driver spends all of their time (in that sweet spot). Enriching an engine will give more power whereas more lean restricts it.

Edited: Aug 28, 2020

 

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Foo2rama

·Aug 28, 2020·Nowhere near as grumpy as he used to be...

Toto said 5 laps in party mode is equivalent to 25 normal laps.
Considering how much power these engines make the rich/lean is not at play.

turbo boost pressure and max rpm are most likely what’s being changed.

In race conditions it’s max fuel flow and max rpm being changed to adjust economy.

 

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simonsays

·Aug 28, 2020

Yes I agree that it will be mainly extra revs and turning off the power harvesting and maximising the electric power unit. Even turbo boost is probably not a factor as the restrictions on fuel flow means extra boost will probably not be useable.

Adjusting fuel mixture seems a bit low tech for F1, and saving fuel would be achieved by lowering rev limits and (like the bad old days) lift and coast.

Edited: Aug 28, 2020

 

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vbrad26

·Aug 28, 2020

Is this for real?

https://www.planetf1.com/news/nico-hulkenberg-haas-2021/

 

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Scarecrow Boat

·Aug 28, 2020

vbrad26

Is this for real?

https://www.planetf1.com/news/nico-hulkenberg-haas-2021/

I haven’t looked into it but in a paddock pass two races ago, Buxton asked Romain what his plans are with the team and Romain answered with this vision outside of F1. Talking about how he would enjoy being with his family and trying new things and saying he hasn’t fully decided on if he wants to stay in F1. So, I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s true.

 

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vbrad26

·Aug 28, 2020

Hulk and Seb for HAAS 2021!

 

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texasmade

·Aug 28, 2020

vbrad26

Hulk and Seb for HAAS 2021!

I don't see Seb staying with a Ferrari powered car in 2021.

 

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vbrad26

·Aug 28, 2020

Oh god no. Nor do I want him to...for his sake lol.
But that doesn't mean I'd still love to see him at HAAS hah.

 

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Lurk41

·Aug 29, 2020

simonsays

Then your interpretation of it is. High performance engines run richer than ideal. So to increase power you must lean off the mix and not enrich it.

No offence intended, but more your interpretation than his.

The graph shows the exact definition of what lean and rich means. HP engine runs way richer than ideal, as you state. If you run then a bit leaner, you increase performance, but the mix is still very rich.
A lean mix give less power than a rich one. A leaner mix... it depends on your reference mix.

Also, despite current F1 engines being high performance ones, they are running lean. The reason is the fuel limit they have to deal with. Remove the 100kg/race limitation and bring back refueling: teams will run them rich again, richer than the max performance mix for the reasons you already wrote

 

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simonsays

·Aug 29, 2020

I don’t thinks so. I imagine with modern electronics and injection they are close to ideal, whilst still running rich to lower temperatures and protect the engine.
Fuel flow rates would be more important for power and economy, not the mix. Running a 1.6 turbo engine producing 800hp with a lean mix would not work. Detonation of pistons would be swift

 

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Dogmann

·Aug 29, 2020

Hi all,

Time to move on from engine mode and engine power to the on going saga re Racing Point and their fine/penalty as it is now Ferrari alone that is still pushing an appeal for stiffer penalties as all the other teams either didn't protest or withdrew their protests. The irony really shouldn't be lost on anyone about this outright hypocrisy from the Team that cheats and has the results all kept secret by Ferrari International Assistance.This is also the same team that has a history of more cheating then any of the other teams and yet is struggling so badly that they feel they have to be trying so hard to keep even one place higher by any means necessary hence their protest. I feel really sorry for poor LeClerc what looked like such a hot long term deal is now looking like golden handcuffs I just hope he has a break clause re performance so he can escape when he gets the chance to and not be stuck with the lame prancing horse.

Marc

 

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Lurk41

·Aug 29, 2020

@simonsays
They are running lean for sure: from several trustable sources (racecar engineering, SAE, etc), AFR is around 21:1 at max perfomance.

The main focus of Shell, Petronas and others is on anti-knock additives. It is also why they are all using pre-combustion chamber. They ignite a rich mix that then ignites a lean mix in the main chamber.

@Dogmann
Given the amount of illegal cars Mercedes and RBR ran the last 10 years... I am not sure we can still call the FIA the Ferrari International Assistance. Just look at how many time Merc and RBR were caught and just asked to come with a conform car at the next race, instead of being disqualified. Also, the says in the paddock is that the only legal PU this year is the Ferrari one. It is also why the FIA is starting to push on the engine side, because they know they are all illegal...

Now, it does not mean Ferrari did a great job with their 2020 car and that their only issue is their legal engine vs illegal others. Being slower than the Alfas in Spa... It was OK in the 50's, not in 2020. I hope Binotto will get fired soon, he is the main reason of their struggles and the one that played behind Arrivabene's back to take his place.

 

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simonsays

·Aug 29, 2020

Lurk41

@simonsays
They are running lean for sure: from several trustable sources (racecar engineering, SAE, etc), AFR is around 21:1 at max perfomance.

The main focus of Shell, Petronas and others is on anti-knock additives. It is also why they are all using pre-combustion chamber. They ignite a rich mix that then ignites a lean mix in the main chamber.

Interesting, well I have to admit to my knowledge being limited and lacking and wrong. Pre ignition chambers, additives, and massively lean engines, quite different to performance road car. A bit of a sidetrack from what I meant that a big knob saying rich/lean mix is unlikely and simplistic, but it is an interesting one. I think I understand more about the difficulties and limitations and innovations for engineers than I did.

 

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texasmade

·Aug 29, 2020

And the clown show continues for Ferrari.

 

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Alpha

·Aug 29, 2020·Kilt Owner, Beagle Parent, Omega Collector

After the storm I had to get a ladder out today and adjust the t.v.aerial, yes some of us still have them and it had better be worth the effort after the last debacle 🤦

 

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texasmade

·Aug 30, 2020

https://mobile.twitter.com/sebvettelnews/status/1300108096224866306


Lol, Vettel doesn’t even try to hide it anymore.

 

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arturo7

·Aug 30, 2020

Lots of action in the midfield today but a total yawner up front.