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wsfarrell
·That right there is some lathe porn.......
Exam results 2017! Watchmaking with the BHI
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ChrisN
·First job I’m trying to do on the lathe is make a tool for fitting a crystal in an Omega 166.068 (Banana Seamaster) as this uses a few of the tools introduced above. This is a 31 mm diameter mineral crystal with the sealing O ring held in a groove around the circumference. It’s similar to some of the 70s Speedmasters and Stewart had a similar issue here. I’ve seen the proper tool which Al has in another location as well as how to use it posted in Stewart’s thread and it seemed easiest to follow something like that. The Speedmasters are 37 mm crystals so, a bit bigger.
Need a piece of hard plastic to make it from so, found this old chopping board in the garage and using a standard wood hole cutter, got a piece out about 48 mm diameter but with a very rough edge – really these hole cutters are designed to give you the hole, not the disc from the middle.
Glued this disc to the wax chuck and left to set.
In the lathe, ready to go.
Here after some turning of the outer diameter and I’m turning everything with the slide rest and two cutters (this one and one that is a mirror image). It just depends on which direction you’re traversing and cutting as the work should always be pushing down onto the tool and you want the tool rake and relief angles in the right orientation. This stuff makes a terrible mess and regular cleaning of the lathe and bed is a must.
Turned down to a smooth circular shape of 43 mm diameter and faced off the surface. This side will be the top of the tool and not that critical but I want it to sit flat when turned over.
Separated the disc from the wax chuck with a razor and here prior to cleaning.
Now reversed and fitted in the adjustable step chuck.
Faced off this surface that was the glued surface above. The disc is about 8 mm thick now.
Now the hole is cut in the centre to 6.5 mm thickness with a diameter of 31.0 mm. I tested this with the crystal and it just slides in. It would have been nice to cut all the way but, I don’t want to catch the chuck. Later, I also faced off the inner 39 mm another 0.4 mm so that there is a lip all the way around the edge of the disc. When pressing the crystal in from the other side on a flat surface, it will protrude 0.4 mm and this should help it to line up with the case. When pushing into the case, that lip is outside the area of the case so the tool fits flush.
Turned over in the step chuck and ready to clean out the rest of the hole. The issue here is that the hole cut above and this one will never have exactly the same centre as the step chuck is not sufficiently accurate so, it will need a little dressing afterwards. This hole is cut on a slight taper so that the hole at this side is 31.8 mm diameter and tapers into the main 31 mm hole. This is just to allow the crystal O ring to be compressed when fitting it from this side so a slight mismatch is okay.
I finished this but need to write some more and have a lot on so, later this week.
Cheers, Chris
Need a piece of hard plastic to make it from so, found this old chopping board in the garage and using a standard wood hole cutter, got a piece out about 48 mm diameter but with a very rough edge – really these hole cutters are designed to give you the hole, not the disc from the middle.
Glued this disc to the wax chuck and left to set.
In the lathe, ready to go.
Here after some turning of the outer diameter and I’m turning everything with the slide rest and two cutters (this one and one that is a mirror image). It just depends on which direction you’re traversing and cutting as the work should always be pushing down onto the tool and you want the tool rake and relief angles in the right orientation. This stuff makes a terrible mess and regular cleaning of the lathe and bed is a must.
Turned down to a smooth circular shape of 43 mm diameter and faced off the surface. This side will be the top of the tool and not that critical but I want it to sit flat when turned over.
Separated the disc from the wax chuck with a razor and here prior to cleaning.
Now reversed and fitted in the adjustable step chuck.
Faced off this surface that was the glued surface above. The disc is about 8 mm thick now.
Now the hole is cut in the centre to 6.5 mm thickness with a diameter of 31.0 mm. I tested this with the crystal and it just slides in. It would have been nice to cut all the way but, I don’t want to catch the chuck. Later, I also faced off the inner 39 mm another 0.4 mm so that there is a lip all the way around the edge of the disc. When pressing the crystal in from the other side on a flat surface, it will protrude 0.4 mm and this should help it to line up with the case. When pushing into the case, that lip is outside the area of the case so the tool fits flush.
Turned over in the step chuck and ready to clean out the rest of the hole. The issue here is that the hole cut above and this one will never have exactly the same centre as the step chuck is not sufficiently accurate so, it will need a little dressing afterwards. This hole is cut on a slight taper so that the hole at this side is 31.8 mm diameter and tapers into the main 31 mm hole. This is just to allow the crystal O ring to be compressed when fitting it from this side so a slight mismatch is okay.
I finished this but need to write some more and have a lot on so, later this week.
Cheers, Chris
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ChrisN
·Thought I should at least post a picture of the tool with the case that it's used for...
I'm not fitting the crystal at the moment as I need to work out exactly what's going on with the seals. Cousins have the following pdf for this case ref and Al was good enough to check it for me.
Two of the seals I have but the third, “unknown seal” is a bit odd as it has an internal diameter of 26.0 mm and an outer of 27.6 mm. A 565 has a diameter of about 28 mm so, it seems a bit small and appears to be an error. The only place I can find for a third seal would be between the inner bezel (which is loose) and the case. This would stop the inner bezel moving and stop it clamping it to the glass. Looking at the bezel and case, the rebate is correct for a seal of inner diameter 29.15 and outer 30.15 (so 1.0 mm thick) but, the height step is only 0.5 mm. It seems a lot to squash down a 1.0 mm thick seal to half it's thickness as it has no possibility to spread laterally so, I'm suspecting it would be 0.8 mm and would compress down to 0.6 or so and spread sideways. Not sure, anyway you can see it in the picture above in the case with the bezel and both parts are shown below out of the case.
Cheers, Chris
I'm not fitting the crystal at the moment as I need to work out exactly what's going on with the seals. Cousins have the following pdf for this case ref and Al was good enough to check it for me.
Two of the seals I have but the third, “unknown seal” is a bit odd as it has an internal diameter of 26.0 mm and an outer of 27.6 mm. A 565 has a diameter of about 28 mm so, it seems a bit small and appears to be an error. The only place I can find for a third seal would be between the inner bezel (which is loose) and the case. This would stop the inner bezel moving and stop it clamping it to the glass. Looking at the bezel and case, the rebate is correct for a seal of inner diameter 29.15 and outer 30.15 (so 1.0 mm thick) but, the height step is only 0.5 mm. It seems a lot to squash down a 1.0 mm thick seal to half it's thickness as it has no possibility to spread laterally so, I'm suspecting it would be 0.8 mm and would compress down to 0.6 or so and spread sideways. Not sure, anyway you can see it in the picture above in the case with the bezel and both parts are shown below out of the case.
Cheers, Chris
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UncleBuck
··understands the decision making hierarchyHuh?
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ChrisN
·This whole system seems far too complicated and just eats away at the time. Ah well, nice to have a challenge as it's all useful for building experience.
The crystal has a groove around the circumference and in there sits a 30.2 mm inner diameter by 0.8 mm thick O ring seal. It sticks out 0.4 mm all the way around. This is the old crystal but I'll fit a new one - the top of the crystal has the big chamfer.
Then the crystal is pressed into my new tool from the top with the crystal top uppermost and as it works its way down, it compresses the seal until it finishes like this with the crystal just proud at the lower.
Turn the tool over and the bit of crystal sticking out gets lined up with the hole in the case - then just push the crystal and it's seal into the case. It's held in the case by that rubber seal as there is another groove in the case like the one in the crystal.
Not shown in the case above are the inner bezel and it's O ring. You see these in my previous post. I am pretty certain that O ring goes there as if not the inner bezel is loose. Looking here this one definitely seems to have the unknown O ring where I'm showing it. Here's a detail and you can see it through the crystal.
It's not sealing anything but does hold the bezel down. I've not seen this before.
Cheers, Chris
The crystal has a groove around the circumference and in there sits a 30.2 mm inner diameter by 0.8 mm thick O ring seal. It sticks out 0.4 mm all the way around. This is the old crystal but I'll fit a new one - the top of the crystal has the big chamfer.
Then the crystal is pressed into my new tool from the top with the crystal top uppermost and as it works its way down, it compresses the seal until it finishes like this with the crystal just proud at the lower.
Turn the tool over and the bit of crystal sticking out gets lined up with the hole in the case - then just push the crystal and it's seal into the case. It's held in the case by that rubber seal as there is another groove in the case like the one in the crystal.
Not shown in the case above are the inner bezel and it's O ring. You see these in my previous post. I am pretty certain that O ring goes there as if not the inner bezel is loose. Looking here this one definitely seems to have the unknown O ring where I'm showing it. Here's a detail and you can see it through the crystal.
It's not sealing anything but does hold the bezel down. I've not seen this before.
Cheers, Chris
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ChrisN
·Hi Guys
It's been a while again but, I'm still continuing with this course. I said back on the first page that there are two service records units: D14 (first year) and D17 (second year) where you have to supply ten watches (D14) and fifteen watches (D17) for the BHI to evaluate. Within those you have to do certain things such as adjusting end shake of jewels, diagnose faults, correct balance spring faults and so on.
I have some confidence in those for D14 and I'll be sorting those ten watches out over the coming months and will put some service records here for people to see.
Now, I think for me to ever be able to lay claim to the title "Watchmaker", I need to include balance staff replacement and this is something you must do for D17 and is, to my mind, the most complex part. There's not a lot of staff replacement going on these days because of the shock protection systems (for example, Incabloc) in widespread use since the middle of the last century. I suspect broken balance staffs are pretty much a thing of the past but, you do see ones with worn pivots so, some replacements are in order.
Nowadays, companies tend to supply a complete balance (balance + staff + regulated hairspring) and that's a lot easier to replace. Omega balance staffs ought to be part number 1321 so, for a 550 series (561, 565 etc) the part number would be 5501321. Cousins have these at about $80 in case you want to try your hand.... Of course, they'll also sell you a complete balance (5501327) at $450 but, you'll struggle to get the same for a 354, although you can get staffs for a 354, 3301321 at $25 so, worn staffs on a bumper 354 can be replaced.
Well, a long preamble to get to the point that I'm doing a balance staff change. Involves some lathe work which I do need to get some time at this year for other units of the course.
Firstly, and as usual, many thanks to Al for his tips and words of encouragement. Of course, he's covered all this before and I'll post his link at the end but I might be able to contribute a little and I feel the need to write something more than "I did what Al covered over there"!
Step 1: Find a likely candidate - nothing too small and with a likely broken staff so nothing with shock protection. I chose this non running Omega (well, this is an Omega forum) stopwatch and it's about 41 mm diameter or 18 ligne. I'm not a great lover of buying watches where the hands aren't attached and some movement parts come in their own little container (!) but assumed it had been take apart and the broken staff was a bridge too far so, they couldn't be bothered putting it back together. I was wrong there as they'd managed to break some other parts - ah well, 50 euros invested so not a problem.
Serial number identifies it as mid '40s where they were obviously experimenting with some decimal time system... Marked as an Omega 5600, which after a little research turns out to be a Lemania 5600, part of their 5000 series of stopwatch calibres. Quick hopeful shout out to Al and a parts list arrived - thanks!
I'll do the strip down another day and the reveal of it's problems but we're in balance staff mode so, here's the balance out of the movement, hairspring removed and about to take off the roller table. There are some odd marks on the balance and the roller table - you can see a pair of radial lines on the table which seem to correspond to some lines on the top of the balance wheel - I think someone has been here before but, he's not made my life any easier as he's probably upset the poise. Why he didn't draw a picture I'll never know.
Now a view of the balance staff under the microscope - upper broken pivot and lower pivot bent.
Ordered a new Omega 5600 balance staff and here it is next to a 550 staff - like I say, nothing too small to start with.
On the other hand, here with a rule in mm, so the whole thing is only 5 mm (0.2") long, just to get things into context...
More later as I write things up.
Cheers, Chris
It's been a while again but, I'm still continuing with this course. I said back on the first page that there are two service records units: D14 (first year) and D17 (second year) where you have to supply ten watches (D14) and fifteen watches (D17) for the BHI to evaluate. Within those you have to do certain things such as adjusting end shake of jewels, diagnose faults, correct balance spring faults and so on.
I have some confidence in those for D14 and I'll be sorting those ten watches out over the coming months and will put some service records here for people to see.
Now, I think for me to ever be able to lay claim to the title "Watchmaker", I need to include balance staff replacement and this is something you must do for D17 and is, to my mind, the most complex part. There's not a lot of staff replacement going on these days because of the shock protection systems (for example, Incabloc) in widespread use since the middle of the last century. I suspect broken balance staffs are pretty much a thing of the past but, you do see ones with worn pivots so, some replacements are in order.
Nowadays, companies tend to supply a complete balance (balance + staff + regulated hairspring) and that's a lot easier to replace. Omega balance staffs ought to be part number 1321 so, for a 550 series (561, 565 etc) the part number would be 5501321. Cousins have these at about $80 in case you want to try your hand.... Of course, they'll also sell you a complete balance (5501327) at $450 but, you'll struggle to get the same for a 354, although you can get staffs for a 354, 3301321 at $25 so, worn staffs on a bumper 354 can be replaced.
Well, a long preamble to get to the point that I'm doing a balance staff change. Involves some lathe work which I do need to get some time at this year for other units of the course.
Firstly, and as usual, many thanks to Al for his tips and words of encouragement. Of course, he's covered all this before and I'll post his link at the end but I might be able to contribute a little and I feel the need to write something more than "I did what Al covered over there"!
Step 1: Find a likely candidate - nothing too small and with a likely broken staff so nothing with shock protection. I chose this non running Omega (well, this is an Omega forum) stopwatch and it's about 41 mm diameter or 18 ligne. I'm not a great lover of buying watches where the hands aren't attached and some movement parts come in their own little container (!) but assumed it had been take apart and the broken staff was a bridge too far so, they couldn't be bothered putting it back together. I was wrong there as they'd managed to break some other parts - ah well, 50 euros invested so not a problem.
Serial number identifies it as mid '40s where they were obviously experimenting with some decimal time system... Marked as an Omega 5600, which after a little research turns out to be a Lemania 5600, part of their 5000 series of stopwatch calibres. Quick hopeful shout out to Al and a parts list arrived - thanks!
I'll do the strip down another day and the reveal of it's problems but we're in balance staff mode so, here's the balance out of the movement, hairspring removed and about to take off the roller table. There are some odd marks on the balance and the roller table - you can see a pair of radial lines on the table which seem to correspond to some lines on the top of the balance wheel - I think someone has been here before but, he's not made my life any easier as he's probably upset the poise. Why he didn't draw a picture I'll never know.
Now a view of the balance staff under the microscope - upper broken pivot and lower pivot bent.
Ordered a new Omega 5600 balance staff and here it is next to a 550 staff - like I say, nothing too small to start with.
On the other hand, here with a rule in mm, so the whole thing is only 5 mm (0.2") long, just to get things into context...
More later as I write things up.
Cheers, Chris
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ChrisN
·Step 2: Roller table removed and mounted in the correct collet in the lathe. The 'rivet' is on the other side but we cut the staff out from here. I notice when the staff is clamped in the collet that I can turn the wheel independently of the staff and that's not right. Not everyone cuts out the staff in this way and some just punch the staff through from the other side breaking the rivet which, of course, tends to enlarge the hole in the balance wheel. Could be the existing staff is not the best fit because of that. Let's see how it works out.
Partially cut away and it's slowly, slowly. You can't afford to touch the wheel doing this.
Cut away further and it's almost there.
Not sure the above picture was clear so, I take it out of the lathe and get one under the microscope. The idea here is to leave a little ring of metal that falls off without damaging the wheel and that frees the staff.
Next cut and the parts are separated. The balance wheel is undamaged.
I'd previously checked the new staff fitted in the plate/cock as it would be a bit frustrating to find this out later. Here's a picture. It was not all cleaned at this point as it will all go in the cleaner later.
Step 3: Fit the new staff into the wheel and rivet it on. I'm using my staking set with a round ended stake initially to spread the groove you see in this picture so that it grips the wheel.
Here in the staking set - you can see I'm not resting on the spokes here. Quite a few taps with the hammer and the rivet starts to spread out and grip the wheel.
You can see it's spreading out here. A few more taps with a flat ended stake and it's finished. I grip it again in the lathe collet and try to turn the wheel independently of the staff and they are gripped together, as it should be.
There's a fair bit to go yet but the staff is in the wheel and they are held together. I pop it in the plate/cock and spin it. It looks like a warped bicycle wheel..🤦. Well, all these things are relative - a warped bike wheel could have a run out of an inch or two on the circumference so, let's see what I have here - tomorrow.
Chris
Partially cut away and it's slowly, slowly. You can't afford to touch the wheel doing this.
Cut away further and it's almost there.
Not sure the above picture was clear so, I take it out of the lathe and get one under the microscope. The idea here is to leave a little ring of metal that falls off without damaging the wheel and that frees the staff.
Next cut and the parts are separated. The balance wheel is undamaged.
I'd previously checked the new staff fitted in the plate/cock as it would be a bit frustrating to find this out later. Here's a picture. It was not all cleaned at this point as it will all go in the cleaner later.
Step 3: Fit the new staff into the wheel and rivet it on. I'm using my staking set with a round ended stake initially to spread the groove you see in this picture so that it grips the wheel.
Here in the staking set - you can see I'm not resting on the spokes here. Quite a few taps with the hammer and the rivet starts to spread out and grip the wheel.
You can see it's spreading out here. A few more taps with a flat ended stake and it's finished. I grip it again in the lathe collet and try to turn the wheel independently of the staff and they are gripped together, as it should be.
There's a fair bit to go yet but the staff is in the wheel and they are held together. I pop it in the plate/cock and spin it. It looks like a warped bicycle wheel..🤦. Well, all these things are relative - a warped bike wheel could have a run out of an inch or two on the circumference so, let's see what I have here - tomorrow.
Chris
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François Pépin
·Always happy to read your reviews of your courses! Thanks.
Balance staff fitting should be my next step, but not for tomorow!
Great pictures. Maybe it is Al ´s touch!
Balance staff fitting should be my next step, but not for tomorow!
Great pictures. Maybe it is Al ´s touch!
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JimInOz
··Melbourne AustraliaThe big pictures make it look easy don't they. 😉
But when I was cutting the staff out for my Ω161 I was actually holding my breath because I was concentrating so hard, I think my heart was paused as well.
Even though it was a "huge" pocket watch staff, trying to keep the loupe in focus and cut took some effort.
Look forward to the next post.
PS: Cousins do sell lathe belt material you know 😁.
But the green stuff from eBay/China may be cheaper and works just as well.
But when I was cutting the staff out for my Ω161 I was actually holding my breath because I was concentrating so hard, I think my heart was paused as well.
Even though it was a "huge" pocket watch staff, trying to keep the loupe in focus and cut took some effort.
Look forward to the next post.
PS: Cousins do sell lathe belt material you know 😁.
But the green stuff from eBay/China may be cheaper and works just as well.
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OMTOM
·Very interesting and great photos
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ChrisN
·I'm always surprised how big everything appears when you're working on it and it becomes big in the mind and then you can't see it on the far side of the bench.
There's a lot of concentration working on the lathe and it's not that easy but, satisfying in the end. It doesn't look too hard but it isn't easy to cut out the staff like that - lots of practice first. Oh, Jim, that is Cousins lathe belting... I think I'm going to look for some big rubber drive belts as I don't like the way the join sounds as it's rotating and I don't think they're very robust. I can't believe that a belt with a join is ever going to give the best finish as it surely causes a little jolt each time.
So, the wheel is not perfectly true::
Step 4: Truing the wheel with Bergeon 5896 calipers. Here's a picture with it mounted and you're looking at the vertical variation from the steel spring on the right hand side and the view of the wheel where you can see more on the left view of the underside. These are two views with the wheel rotated 180 degrees between them. The variation is about 25% of the wheel thickness and that's enough to give it the warped wheel look even though that would be about 0.15 mm. It's not easy to see but it is there.
After a little work and the wheel is running true. All good now.
Step 5: First is to refit the roller table which goes on in the same position it came off in the above picture - usually with the ruby at 90 degrees to the wheel spokes. I use the staking set for this but as the balance is this way around, I need a stump underneath the balance as the spokes do not lie flat on the table - they are inset and I need to support locally to where I'm pushing.
This doesn't go too well as pressed on, it is not tight enough and can still rotate relative to the staff. Before fitting the balance staff I made the test that the roller table went on and had something left to press where it grips the staff. Unfortunately, there was not enough interference. Well, new roller tables are available so time to see if I can rescue this one temporarily and learn something new.
The staking set includes this triangular tool which is used as an "emergency measure". One of the many emergencies you come across daily in watchmaking🙄
Knowing I can replace the whole table later, I use it very gently. Pressing on again and it grips fine and is square so, all well. I'll still replace the table but a tool new to me that I've now used in anger.
Step 7: Static poising with the poising tool. So, I did a bit of this before but, still, it's interesting. and another skill to master. I've cleaned off the ruby jaws with a piece of pith wood and rotate the wheel by touching it with a single brush hair. It rolls and finally stops, initially with lots of to and fro as there is a heavy spot. Don't worry that the spirit level bubble is not in the middle, it is when it's on the jaws and that's all that counts.
It's a big old balance so, I up to a 1.0 mm diameter drill and not fractions of a mm as used on a wristwatch wheel. Needs a little lightening as seen below, opposite the ruby pin. Compare to the picture at the start.
Coming to a close now so, I'll finish this later.
There's a lot of concentration working on the lathe and it's not that easy but, satisfying in the end. It doesn't look too hard but it isn't easy to cut out the staff like that - lots of practice first. Oh, Jim, that is Cousins lathe belting... I think I'm going to look for some big rubber drive belts as I don't like the way the join sounds as it's rotating and I don't think they're very robust. I can't believe that a belt with a join is ever going to give the best finish as it surely causes a little jolt each time.
So, the wheel is not perfectly true::
Step 4: Truing the wheel with Bergeon 5896 calipers. Here's a picture with it mounted and you're looking at the vertical variation from the steel spring on the right hand side and the view of the wheel where you can see more on the left view of the underside. These are two views with the wheel rotated 180 degrees between them. The variation is about 25% of the wheel thickness and that's enough to give it the warped wheel look even though that would be about 0.15 mm. It's not easy to see but it is there.
After a little work and the wheel is running true. All good now.
Step 5: First is to refit the roller table which goes on in the same position it came off in the above picture - usually with the ruby at 90 degrees to the wheel spokes. I use the staking set for this but as the balance is this way around, I need a stump underneath the balance as the spokes do not lie flat on the table - they are inset and I need to support locally to where I'm pushing.
This doesn't go too well as pressed on, it is not tight enough and can still rotate relative to the staff. Before fitting the balance staff I made the test that the roller table went on and had something left to press where it grips the staff. Unfortunately, there was not enough interference. Well, new roller tables are available so time to see if I can rescue this one temporarily and learn something new.
The staking set includes this triangular tool which is used as an "emergency measure". One of the many emergencies you come across daily in watchmaking🙄
Knowing I can replace the whole table later, I use it very gently. Pressing on again and it grips fine and is square so, all well. I'll still replace the table but a tool new to me that I've now used in anger.
Step 7: Static poising with the poising tool. So, I did a bit of this before but, still, it's interesting. and another skill to master. I've cleaned off the ruby jaws with a piece of pith wood and rotate the wheel by touching it with a single brush hair. It rolls and finally stops, initially with lots of to and fro as there is a heavy spot. Don't worry that the spirit level bubble is not in the middle, it is when it's on the jaws and that's all that counts.
It's a big old balance so, I up to a 1.0 mm diameter drill and not fractions of a mm as used on a wristwatch wheel. Needs a little lightening as seen below, opposite the ruby pin. Compare to the picture at the start.
Coming to a close now so, I'll finish this later.
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ChrisN
·Step 8: Refitting the hairspring to the balance wheel. I use the staking set again and push this on. The red dots are mine and will be removed but the radial scribed lines are someone else's...
Reattached to the stud and cock fitted back to the plate for a final check before cleaning everything. All looks good but the hairspring shape will need some work. I didn't want to change too many things in one go as you can get lost with what is affecting the results.
The red dots are there because I don't have a lift angle for this calibre which I'll need for the timegrapher. When I start the movement running, I give it a very little wind, just a few clicks, and watch the outer red dot. As the balance swings both ways you see a pair of red dots on the far side of the cock and as the amplitude increases towards 180 degrees, the two dots merge. At that point, the amplitude is 180 degrees so, with the timegrapher running read the indicated amplitude - say it's 220 degrees. As the lift angle and amplitude are linked because of the way the timegrapher works, I reduce the lift angle on the timegrapher until the amplitude reads 180 degrees there as well. I get a lift angle of 43 degrees using this method. If I'd left it at 52 degrees, it'll show 50 degrees or so more than reality.
Here, the base movement cleaned and assembled.
Below, after leaving for a day and adjusting the beat error by turning the hairspring collet at the wheel, as it's a fixed stud on these. It's pure luck that I get exactly 0ms beat error as turning these collets is a bit hit and miss. I'd normally stop when it's below 0.8ms.
Amplitude is a little bit low but, I'll get a new mainspring to solve that. I've also used heavy oil because all the wheels run in the plates without jewels. Normally, I'd use heavy oil (Moebius HP1300) on all the train except the fourth wheel, escape wheel and balance wheel where I use a lighter high speed oil (Moebius 9010). Here, it's all HP 1300 except the balance jewels so I'm causing a little extra drag on the system.
There are a few issues yet with this movement but, it is running smoothly again.😀
And, as I mentioned at the start, here's a link to Al's explanation.👍
Cheers, Chris
Reattached to the stud and cock fitted back to the plate for a final check before cleaning everything. All looks good but the hairspring shape will need some work. I didn't want to change too many things in one go as you can get lost with what is affecting the results.
The red dots are there because I don't have a lift angle for this calibre which I'll need for the timegrapher. When I start the movement running, I give it a very little wind, just a few clicks, and watch the outer red dot. As the balance swings both ways you see a pair of red dots on the far side of the cock and as the amplitude increases towards 180 degrees, the two dots merge. At that point, the amplitude is 180 degrees so, with the timegrapher running read the indicated amplitude - say it's 220 degrees. As the lift angle and amplitude are linked because of the way the timegrapher works, I reduce the lift angle on the timegrapher until the amplitude reads 180 degrees there as well. I get a lift angle of 43 degrees using this method. If I'd left it at 52 degrees, it'll show 50 degrees or so more than reality.
Here, the base movement cleaned and assembled.
Below, after leaving for a day and adjusting the beat error by turning the hairspring collet at the wheel, as it's a fixed stud on these. It's pure luck that I get exactly 0ms beat error as turning these collets is a bit hit and miss. I'd normally stop when it's below 0.8ms.
Amplitude is a little bit low but, I'll get a new mainspring to solve that. I've also used heavy oil because all the wheels run in the plates without jewels. Normally, I'd use heavy oil (Moebius HP1300) on all the train except the fourth wheel, escape wheel and balance wheel where I use a lighter high speed oil (Moebius 9010). Here, it's all HP 1300 except the balance jewels so I'm causing a little extra drag on the system.
There are a few issues yet with this movement but, it is running smoothly again.😀
And, as I mentioned at the start, here's a link to Al's explanation.👍
Cheers, Chris
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François Pépin
·Thanks a lot Chris, great stuff!
So you think 280° is a bit low on a vintage pocket watch? It is true that old mainsprings on Omega 19'' could still be very strong, and that it is possible to have very good amplitude on those watches and broadly speaking vintage Omega pocket watches. But I would think 280 is OK. Could you please comment on that?
So you think 280° is a bit low on a vintage pocket watch? It is true that old mainsprings on Omega 19'' could still be very strong, and that it is possible to have very good amplitude on those watches and broadly speaking vintage Omega pocket watches. But I would think 280 is OK. Could you please comment on that?
Edited:
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lillatroll
·Great read. I always look forward to reading how you are getting on. I am fascinated by the workings of these engineering marvels.How many checks do you have to do to get the watch working accurately and if you adjust one thing do you have to adjust other parts as well? What is the most difficult task you have had to do on your course?
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ChrisN
·Thanks a lot Chris, great stuff!
So you think 280° is a bit low on a vintage pocket watch? It is true that old mainsprings on Omega 19'' could still be very strong, and that it is possible to have very good amplitude on those watches and boeadly speaking vintage Omega pocket watches. But I would think 280 is OK. Could you please comment on that?
Thanks for the feedback Francois. The BHI specify that the range should be a maximum of 310 degrees and a typical amplitude of 270 degrees at full wind. So, with 280 in horizontal, I'm getting about 250 when vertical which is the natural position for a stopwatch. For me, this is a little low. At 24H, they would like a minimum of 200 degrees but they're obviously trying to cover all watches with this from new to vintage.
Witschi specify the following as general rules so, same ball park as the BHI -nothing changes except the rate per day in these lines:
In reality, it depends on the type of the watch and the state of the mainspring (assuming everything else is good). Firstly, you see some people oiling the mainspring after they've fitted it with little blobs of oil. This won't help you to get higher amplitudes as I never got 300 degrees until I stopped that bad habit. You sometimes see people putting these little blobs of oil on both old and new mainsprings. Modern new mainsprings should go in in as they are as they are pre-lubricated. If you're re-using the spring, wipe it down with a little oil (there are special tweezers for this if you feel the need to spend money) before winding it into the winder. Al has some posts somewhere showing this and it's what the BHI teach.
So, if this stopwatch was for me, I'd probably take this as is, because it is only a stopwatch for timing 30 minute intervals and it will pick up a little after it's been running for a week. But, I might submit this as one of my Unit D14 watches so, will replace the spring.
I've just done an ETA 2892 (similar to an Omega 1120) which is a great calibre and this one shows little wear. I just popped it on the timegrapher and at full wind it shows 305-315 in horizontal and 275-285 through all the verticals.As I remember, it only drops 10% maximum at 24H so, I'd rate this as very good and everything older is down from there (Al may disagree😉).
Against that, I have quite a few Omega 550 series (561, 565 etc) and I can work hard at those and sometimes still not get better than 250-260 degrees in horizontal. I have one or two at 300 but that's not the rule. If you replace a lot of the wheels, you can get them up to 300 but, that's an expensive way to service a watch. I'd struggle to pass all the BHI requirements easily with these but I can do it.
I also have an Omega 601 here which is basically a manual 550 and even with very worn wheels, it's hitting 260 degrees horizontal and worst position after 24H is still 200 degrees. It's coming apart again as these are clearly too low but at the time, I didn't have a wheel to replace this one where the pivot is very worn so, it was a test. I don't have any issue with rebuilding movements a couple of times as it's all good practice at the bench and it shows me the effects of each problem - this pivot is obviously unacceptable but the movement made a good go of it.
I only have a couple of the 86x but these are both better than the 550 series and I think they are more robust. On the bumper front, the 330 series, I'd say these were more like the 550 series but it's even harder to get parts so, I have to accept lower than I'd like.
I have no real experience with the Omega stopwatches or pocket watches so, it's hard to say very much but, this one will hit 300 degrees (if I have to drag it there ticking and screaming....😁). There's not much wear and I've replaced one wheel so, it should do it.
Where to set the acceptable level when servicing is another matter which is why I'm not being too specific but, I'd say for the calibres I think are capable above, you'd want to meet the Witschi specs towards the top end and for those which have a parts availability issue, the specs at the lower end or even a bit below in terms of vertical. Of course, after 24H, you'd be aiming for the same but less 10% or 15% as they say so still better than 200 as an absolute minimum in any position.
This is a hugely interesting topic and there a lot of things you can do to increase (or reduce when required) the amplitude. We'll see if Al or anyone else chimes in but I doubt Al has a specific level for every watch either from my discussions with him. He of course, can comment on many other calibres as well but these are the ones I've worked with most.
Cheers, Chris
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François Pépin
·Thanks for the feedback Francois. The BHI specify that the range should be a maximum of 310 degrees and a typical amplitude of 270 degrees at full wind. So, with 280 in horizontal, I'm getting about 250 when vertical which is the natural position for a stopwatch. For me, this is a little low. At 24H, they would like a minimum of 200 degrees but they're obviously trying to cover all watches with this from new to vintage.
Witschi specify the following as general rules so, same ball park as the BHI -nothing changes except the rate per day in these lines:
In reality, it depends on the type of the watch and the state of the mainspring (assuming everything else is good). Firstly, you see some people oiling the mainspring after they've fitted it with little blobs of oil. This won't help you to get higher amplitudes as I never got 300 degrees until I stopped that bad habit. You sometimes see people putting these little blobs of oil on both old and new mainsprings. Modern new mainsprings should go in in as they are as they are pre-lubricated. If you're re-using the spring, wipe it down with a little oil (there are special tweezers for this if you feel the need to spend money) before winding it into the winder. Al has some posts somewhere showing this and it's what the BHI teach.
So, if this stopwatch was for me, I'd probably take this as is, because it is only a stopwatch for timing 30 minute intervals and it will pick up a little after it's been running for a week. But, I might submit this as one of my Unit D14 watches so, will replace the spring.
I've just done an ETA 2892 (similar to an Omega 1120) which is a great calibre and this one shows little wear. I just popped it on the timegrapher and at full wind it shows 305-315 in horizontal and 275-285 through all the verticals.As I remember, it only drops 10% maximum at 24H so, I'd rate this as very good and everything older is down from there (Al may disagree😉).
Against that, I have quite a few Omega 550 series (561, 565 etc) and I can work hard at those and sometimes still not get better than 250-260 degrees in horizontal. I have one or two at 300 but that's not the rule. If you replace a lot of the wheels, you can get them up to 300 but, that's an expensive way to service a watch. I'd struggle to pass all the BHI requirements easily with these but I can do it.
I also have an Omega 601 here which is basically a manual 550 and even with very worn wheels, it's hitting 260 degrees horizontal and worst position after 24H is still 200 degrees. It's coming apart again as these are clearly too low but at the time, I didn't have a wheel to replace this one where the pivot is very worn so, it was a test. I don't have any issue with rebuilding movements a couple of times as it's all good practice at the bench and it shows me the effects of each problem - this pivot is obviously unacceptable but the movement made a good go of it.
I only have a couple of the 86x but these are both better than the 550 series and I think they are more robust. On the bumper front, the 330 series, I'd say these were more like the 550 series but it's even harder to get parts so, I have to accept lower than I'd like.
I have no real experience with the Omega stopwatches or pocket watches so, it's hard to say very much but, this one will hit 300 degrees (if I have to drag it there ticking and screaming....😁). There's not much wear and I've replaced one wheel so, it should do it.
Where to set the acceptable level when servicing is another matter which is why I'm not being too specific but, I'd say for the calibres I think are capable above, you'd want to meet the Witschi specs towards the top end and for those which have a parts availability issue, the specs at the lower end or even a bit below in terms of vertical. Of course, after 24H, you'd be aiming for the same but less 10% or 15% as they say so still better than 200 as an absolute minimum in any position.
This is a hugely interesting topic and there a lot of things you can do to increase (or reduce when required) the amplitude. We'll see if Al or anyone else chimes in but I doubt Al has a specific level for every watch either from my discussions with him. He of course, can comment on many other calibres as well but these are the ones I've worked with most.
Cheers, Chris
As usual, many thanks! Let me think about this stuff, and I will answer you.
For the moment, just one remark: it is really amazing how you (and Al) can clarify such topics! Thanks again.
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ChrisN
·Great read. I always look forward to reading how you are getting on. I am fascinated by the workings of these engineering marvels.How many checks do you have to do to get the watch working accurately and if you adjust one thing do you have to adjust other parts as well? What is the most difficult task you have had to do on your course?
Thanks!
There are a lot of checks to be honest, a brief summary just for the working train of many watches:
1. Cleanliness and I check this under the microscope (this is a big one).
2. Review the barrel arbor and all pivots, like the one above, for wear under the microscope. Then review all the gear teeth and barrel in the same way as well as pallet jewels.
3. Before building the movement (following advice from Al), I mount the balance wheel/cock with its jewels to look at the shape of the hairspring and the way it fits in the regulator pins. Adjusting the shape of the spring can take some time but it's easier to see and work on when it's the only thing on the plate.
4. Check/adjust the end shake of the arbor in the barrel, barrel in bridge, 2nd/3rd/4th/escape wheels in their jewels, fork in its jewels and balance in its. The check is done by eye (with an eyeglass) and feel. The adjustment with one or two special tools.
5. Check the side shake of arbor in barrel, barrel in bridge, 2nd/3rd/4th/escape wheels in their jewels, fork in its jewels and balance in its. Also by eye and feel. Really, to correct the side shake you're replacing items.
6. There are a lot of checks as you oil so, no oil outside the sink or on top of the pivot for example. For the shock protection, you oil in a different way but, you're looking for a particular amount of oil on the cap jewel. I do a lot of oiling under the microscope again.
7. Check the escapement and this is not trivial as, for example, you're looking for the lock or run to banking (all a bit technical, sorry). This is with everything except balance fitted and is partly judgement. Correcting faults here can be difficult so parts replacement is easier and I do this check partly under the microscope.
8. When you fit the balance now, it starts and is running.
9. After 30 minutes, I remove balance and oil the pallet stones which you re-check after a day running.
10. Then, it's fine tuning and usually just the regulator pin separation for me.
I always miss something obvious when I try to summarize like that and it's something that you just do without thinking about it...
For a simple movement, apart from the hairspring work, there are not a lot of secondary impacts. So, adjusting a jewel to reduce the end shake by 0.02 mm doesn't really lead to another adjustment. The escape adjustments are a lot more complicated/interlinked though and changing the terminal curve of a hairspring may mean that you now have to re-adjust the regulator pins.
On the course so far, the hardest thing for me is adjustment of hairsprings out of plane (90 degrees to the spiral). This is very difficult and certainly harder for me than anything above. I seem to have a bit of a block about this but will persevere and I'm sure it will come.
In terms of what you have to do for the course, just for the D14 servicing unit, you must include the repair of some faults. These are as below and I mentioned some of them above:
1. Adjust cannon pinion tightness.
2. Water resistance testing by two methods and a condensation test.
3. Clean and oil shock resistant settings, type 1.
4. Clean and oil shock resistant settings, type 2.
5. Replace shock resistant springs.
6. Replace jewels which are friction set.
7. Adjust end shake, friction jewels.
8. Use test equipment to diagnose faults in quartz watches.
9. Use test equipment to diagnose faults in mechanical watches.
10. Check for faults in lever escapement:
a. Horn shake: i. Equal both sides; ii. Less than total lock; iii. Greater than run to the banking.
b. Guard pin shake: i. Equal both sides; ii. Less than or equal to horn shake.
c. Locking - virtual or drop lock = 1½° or ¼ to 1⁄ 5 of pallet impulse face;
d. Run to banking and draw: i. ½°; ii. Less than horn shake; iii. Draw causes lever to return to banking pin.
11. Correct balance spring faults:
a. Flatness at collet;
b. Flatness at cock;
c. Centring at collet;
d. Curb pins;
e. Beat; and
f. Rate
I'll put some of my service records on my Onedrive (?) when I'm happy with the format. People such as Al give a nice service record for every watch they do but he doesn't have to try and prove what he's checking so my BHI ones may give a little more detail in that respect. I have a folder for each watch with many pictures like this showing what I check and how I'm adjusting things... This one seems to cover items 3, 5 and 7 of unit D14.
Cheers, Chris
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ChrisN
·As usual, many thanks! Let me think about this stuff, and I will answer you.
For the moment, just one remark: it is really amazing how you (and Al) can clarify such topics! Thanks again.
There's a lot here Francois and we're skimming things a little but, thanks for the compliment.
Out of interest, I made this breakdown of the lessons in the BHI course. The Intermediate grade is the course I'm following but, you need to work through most of the Final grade lessons to pass that. Some notes:
I've struck through a few lessons as they are clock related. I will look at them but not too seriously.
They seem to be a bit of a random order but there is some logic.
I've been dipping in and out of them but have started going through in order now.
Making the balance vibrating tool is challenging but, it's only(!) the lower part -the master balance. It's not really intended to be used as a tool but it could be useful. The purpose is to make some parts and be comfortable making them. Where I'm going to get a generic 18000 hairspring for a 19 mm balance is another matter... There is no requirement to make this anyway as long as you can make the test pieces for unit D5 which they reveal next year and give me three weeks to make. And even then, only if you take the exams.
I think at the stage you're at, a structured learning might be an interesting way forward so, let me know by PM if you're interested in this course. You don't have to sit the exams and you can just attend short courses if you feel like it while following the distance learning course. I think it's a way to build knowledge but it needs to be someone like yourself as they don't spoon feed you the information - you need to read around and do some practical things on your own and that seems to be where you are and what you enjoy. Some people do this just for the enjoyment and it can take as many years as you want. I was very wary at the start but, I'm warming to it and it is involved as they require you to work to the same standard as any other qualification. The ideal would be the 3 year full time WOSTEP course which would have more detail in making parts, for example but very few people can get to do that.
Cheers, Chris
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ChrisN
·Another long delay but, there's been a lot going on...
So, am happy with the first 8 lessons of the Intermediate Grade course and these 17 are the ones I'll be tested on in May.
The first lesson covers types of escapements up to the (more or less) the development of the lever escapement, a version of which is used in most watches today, obviously excluding those carrying George Daniel's co-axial escapement. The lever escapement is dealt with in a lot more detail in lesson 4 as it's the one most needed for the watch course. Most of this is well explained but, it's still necessary to read around the subject to get a good depth of knowledge.
Lesson 2 deals with pivots, repair bushings, side and end shake and then moves (oddly) to types of cleaning and cleaning machines. There's a discussion of the various types of machines and cleaning fluids in current use of which, the primary difference is whether they include ultrasonic cleaning or not. Then there's a discussion of health and safety with regards to these fluids and machines.
So, this led me to a couple of purchases. The first one is a cabinet to keep all these dangerous fluids in, which are flammable and not that pleasant to handle or smell. Here's a specific cabinet installed which is important as keeping quantities of these fluids around has some risks. Luckily, the local recycling centre takes these fluids in, as long as they're in the original container so, there's a trip down there every few months.
Then the big one. I wanted an automatic cleaning machine as standing there moving the basket between jars is tedious. Better to free up the half an hour to do something else. There are really only a couple of professional level options for me and both are used by the BHI:
Non ultrasonic: The latest Elma RM which replaced the RM90 that is widely used in the industry.
Ultrasonic: The Greiner
The difference in price with taxes is significant and for the vintage market, a few people have expressed concern to me about the effect of the Ultrasonic cleaning on some of the movement finishes. Of course, you can turn the ultrasonic off with the Greiner if you want but, I've opted for the RM as it will work for me and the BHI plus it is used by most of the existing professionals for movement cleaning. I've run ten movements through it so far and it cleans very well. Okay, I watched it for the first few while I built up confidence that it wasn't going to catch fire the first time I turned my back🙄.
It's in a cabinet with three sides that swing open - still keep windows on either side of the room open when it's running.
We're taught to peg all jewels and bushings before putting into the cleaner and I'm getting excellent results with this machine. Here's the standard cleaning cycle but you can increase times and intensity on the front of the machine - useful for very dirty movements. I use Elma fluids as they are readily available in Spain but, I'm not going to open up the war about the best cleaning fluids - in watchmaking circles, this is like questioning someone's choice of oils. Not a good idea!
Jar 1: Cleaning Elma WF Pro 5 minutes clean + 2 minutes spin off
Jar 2: Rinse 1 Elma Suprol Pro 3 minutes rinse + 2 minutes spin off
Jar 3: Rinse 2 Elma Suprol Pro 3 minutes rinse + 2 minutes spin off
Jar 4: Rinse 3 Elma Suprol Pro 3 minutes rinse + 2 minutes spin off
Drying chamber 7 minutes drying
The basket is in 3 layers and here's one loaded with part of an Omega 354. Elma supply one small basket (not the one shown) with the machine and the more delicate parts go into the basket. I already had some baskets so can separate out more parts. I like to keep the upper and lower shock jewels separate, for example as they are not always the same and you don't want to be trying to fit them in the wrong positions. If you look around the web, everyone seems to load these differently but, I think it's worth not having too many parts in each area of the basket just so they don't get knocked about too much.
After the cleaning cycle, I'm inspecting all the jewels, wheels etc under the microscope and this shows that the cleaner is doing a good job. It's quite an investment but, it frees up time and is the right level of cleaner for doing this work. There is a lot of magnification in play here.
Now, that was possibly🙄, not the most interesting post but, it's one more thing I needed to sort out and it's something to share. Along with the Witschi tester I reviewed over here, it's an investment for the future, I hope.
Next post about hairsprings, removing the balance cock and hopefully it'll be a little more interesting.
Cheers, Chris
So, am happy with the first 8 lessons of the Intermediate Grade course and these 17 are the ones I'll be tested on in May.
The first lesson covers types of escapements up to the (more or less) the development of the lever escapement, a version of which is used in most watches today, obviously excluding those carrying George Daniel's co-axial escapement. The lever escapement is dealt with in a lot more detail in lesson 4 as it's the one most needed for the watch course. Most of this is well explained but, it's still necessary to read around the subject to get a good depth of knowledge.
Lesson 2 deals with pivots, repair bushings, side and end shake and then moves (oddly) to types of cleaning and cleaning machines. There's a discussion of the various types of machines and cleaning fluids in current use of which, the primary difference is whether they include ultrasonic cleaning or not. Then there's a discussion of health and safety with regards to these fluids and machines.
So, this led me to a couple of purchases. The first one is a cabinet to keep all these dangerous fluids in, which are flammable and not that pleasant to handle or smell. Here's a specific cabinet installed which is important as keeping quantities of these fluids around has some risks. Luckily, the local recycling centre takes these fluids in, as long as they're in the original container so, there's a trip down there every few months.
Then the big one. I wanted an automatic cleaning machine as standing there moving the basket between jars is tedious. Better to free up the half an hour to do something else. There are really only a couple of professional level options for me and both are used by the BHI:
Non ultrasonic: The latest Elma RM which replaced the RM90 that is widely used in the industry.
Ultrasonic: The Greiner
The difference in price with taxes is significant and for the vintage market, a few people have expressed concern to me about the effect of the Ultrasonic cleaning on some of the movement finishes. Of course, you can turn the ultrasonic off with the Greiner if you want but, I've opted for the RM as it will work for me and the BHI plus it is used by most of the existing professionals for movement cleaning. I've run ten movements through it so far and it cleans very well. Okay, I watched it for the first few while I built up confidence that it wasn't going to catch fire the first time I turned my back🙄.
It's in a cabinet with three sides that swing open - still keep windows on either side of the room open when it's running.
We're taught to peg all jewels and bushings before putting into the cleaner and I'm getting excellent results with this machine. Here's the standard cleaning cycle but you can increase times and intensity on the front of the machine - useful for very dirty movements. I use Elma fluids as they are readily available in Spain but, I'm not going to open up the war about the best cleaning fluids - in watchmaking circles, this is like questioning someone's choice of oils. Not a good idea!
Jar 1: Cleaning Elma WF Pro 5 minutes clean + 2 minutes spin off
Jar 2: Rinse 1 Elma Suprol Pro 3 minutes rinse + 2 minutes spin off
Jar 3: Rinse 2 Elma Suprol Pro 3 minutes rinse + 2 minutes spin off
Jar 4: Rinse 3 Elma Suprol Pro 3 minutes rinse + 2 minutes spin off
Drying chamber 7 minutes drying
The basket is in 3 layers and here's one loaded with part of an Omega 354. Elma supply one small basket (not the one shown) with the machine and the more delicate parts go into the basket. I already had some baskets so can separate out more parts. I like to keep the upper and lower shock jewels separate, for example as they are not always the same and you don't want to be trying to fit them in the wrong positions. If you look around the web, everyone seems to load these differently but, I think it's worth not having too many parts in each area of the basket just so they don't get knocked about too much.
After the cleaning cycle, I'm inspecting all the jewels, wheels etc under the microscope and this shows that the cleaner is doing a good job. It's quite an investment but, it frees up time and is the right level of cleaner for doing this work. There is a lot of magnification in play here.
Now, that was possibly🙄, not the most interesting post but, it's one more thing I needed to sort out and it's something to share. Along with the Witschi tester I reviewed over here, it's an investment for the future, I hope.
Next post about hairsprings, removing the balance cock and hopefully it'll be a little more interesting.
Cheers, Chris
