Early Polerouter Sub Discussion

Wow, great discussion ! I have owned two UG Polerouter subs 42 m.m.I had the second execution, the case was kind of matte, and the dial had the GENE VE. I had my reservations about the authenticity. The other UG Polerouter sub I own is a 1st execution.
When I first got the watch the case was so pristine that I thought the watch was a franken ! The more I examined the watch, it was totally consistent with the all of the original models on the internet ! The case is very bright, not matte like the second execution.. Crowns are shorter than the ones on the second execution (Tiffany model above is correct). The dial, as Lou states, is lumed with dots on the markers. If you ever had the chance to compare the two first executions, the second executions all seems to be frankens, and or lower quality ? Maybe UG was going down hill in their quality ? I might agree that all of the secound executions are frankens ! I own at least 20 UG vintage watches, and the quality of these cases all seem to be a higher quality steel than the second executiion Polerouter Sub.
Comments ?

I guess with all of the second executions of the First generation Polerouter Subs, they do seem to have some consistancies.. All the dials have the GENE VE dial. Cases are all matte, with beveled lugs. I feel all of the second executions of the Polerouter Sub's are either faked by the same people in AU, and or UG quality control was "out to lunch" in the sixties !

That's true, I even have 60's UG that have
superior quality! I guess some 42 m.m. UG Polerouter
Subs are either frankens or maybe a bad batch from UG ?

Hi rolokr, here is what I believe to be true:

Any Polerouter Sub with "GENE VE" is not original. We only have a record of that dial showing up in the last decade and not before then. There are some 2nd-gen watches with that dial that have genuine high-quality steel cases. Those started showing up a few years ago. Many had fictitious US Navy markings on the back. Then I believe the individual ran out of nice cases (they were perhaps an old supply of cases he had gotten that were originally owned by UG) and he started making cast cases, which are the inferior quality matte steel with lots of scratches and black marks. I am not sure whether the dials are actually from the 1960s or were made more recently, but if original, I believe they were meant to be destroyed and simply got left somewhere until someone took those and the cases and started making watches. Most of the 2nd-gen watches have very scratched up microrotor movements that were "drawer movements" (probably bought on eBay) or taken out of later Polerouters (also probably bought on eBay).

Good points !

Quite a few bold statements here. Could you point us towards specific auction results or known examples to support your chronology? I believe that there are second execution examples that date back over a decade, though I do not have my database at hand to supply a specific example.

While I agree with your healthy skepticism regarding the second executions perhaps we ought to tone back the rhetoric a bit and carefully choose our words. Vintage watch collecting is all about the nuances. If a dial and case were supplied under contract to Universal Geneve, then I would consider them to be "original". Now, whether we subsequently call them service dials or misprints intended for destruction, is a digression. I understand your point that some (many? all?) of the second execution examples may be put together watches assembled outside of a Universal Geneve facility. But let us not forget that Universal, as a company, was under considerable financial duress during the later 1960s and 1970s. Having lost access to their storied lineup of chronograph calibres (to Zenith), they found themselves scrambling to source and put out a flagship chronograph watch, with little real possibility of entering the next market: automatic chronographs. They were also litigating a patent battle with Buren concerning their micro rotor automatic movements. And then, of course, we have the quartz crisis.

Under financial duress, it is generally believed that Universal subsisted for several years simply using up stocks of calibres and spare parts. Combine this with the sheer multitude of "mix and match" dial/case/hands styles that Universal put out during their hey day, and it is certainly not inconceivable that some of the second executions were produced by UG. I have my own opinions on these pieces, but I do not have hard proof one way or another. So as far as I'm concerned, I won't be making any sweeping, bold conclusions without further data.

Ive seen mint first executions, but never a mint
second execution ! Makes me wonder ?

Hi woodwkr2 - I guess I would consider any UG watch not put together by UG not something I would want. I'll let others decide for themselves. Indeed, we have seen the prices of these questionable second executions plummet on eBay since this discussion started. Many seasoned collectors have bought them and have reached conclusions that they are fakes after this discussion took place. They can speak for themselves.

If you look at the hodgepodge of microrotors in some of these, you can see some very badly scratched up and others have widely varying serial information. I wish I had kept a record of all this, but I haven't. It is not a watch that I have been seriously interested in purchasing, but just kept an eye on as part of my larger collecting interests. I first began getting suspicions when I saw the fake USN markings appearing on what looked like fresh-to-market examples. Then we began seeing watches in the matte cases that clearly were of inferior quality. The seller(s) of those Polerouter Subs were selling other fakes such as Heuer Bundeswehrs (with gold text and junky cases) and Jaeger-LeCoultre Polarises. He has even faked Breguet chronographs.

I have examined past sales and articles and haven't seen these 2nd-gen Subs for that long. If you go back to the UG auctions at Antiquorum, there were only 1st-gen Subs with the lume on the edge of the circles. Starting in 2009 at Antiquorum, you can see the questionable Polerouter Subs.

Here are some relevant links:

The three Polerouter Subs from the 1994 UG Sale by Antiquorum in Geneva:

Lot 132, sold for 1,898 CHF:
http://www.antiquorum.com/catalog/lots/lot-122-132?browse_all=1&page=1&q=polerouter+sub
High-res photo:
http://images2.antiquorum.com/auctions-images/122/lots/132/132.jpg

Lot 133, sold for 1,610 CHF:
http://www.antiquorum.com/catalog/lots/lot-122-133?browse_all=1&page=1&q=polerouter+sub
High-res photo:
http://images2.antiquorum.com/auctions-images/122/lots/133/133.jpg

Lot 134, sold for 2,530 CHF:
http://www.antiquorum.com/catalog/lots/lot-122-134?browse_all=1&page=1&q=polerouter+sub
High-res photo:
http://images2.antiquorum.com/auctions-images/122/lots/134/134.jpg

Antiquorum 2008, a 2nd-gen with legit case, but overall a questionable watch to me with the "GENE VE" dial, sold for $3,960:
http://www.antiquorum.com/catalog/lots/lot-207-352?browse_all=1&page=1&q=polerouter
High-res photo:
http://images2.antiquorum.com/auctions-images/207/lots/352/352.jpg

Antiquorum 2009, a 2nd-gen with legit case, but again with the "GENE VE" that makes it questionable for me, sold for $4,320:
http://www.antiquorum.com/catalog/lots/lot-212-410?browse_all=1&page=1&q=polerouter#
High-res photo:
http://images2.antiquorum.com/auctions-images/212/lots/410/410.jpg

This is the earliest reference to a second-generation Polerouter Sub I have seen, from December 1, 2006 (a couple years before I got interested in collecting watches):
http://ninanet.net/watches/others14/Mediums/mpole.html

The crowns on it look a little crude to me and don't look original. The case and movement also have a lot of scratches like they possibly were in a drawer. Last, I question the dial.

All - I have a final thought on the lume that I had not shared. Of course, I have never seen a questionable one where the lume was the tiny dots on the edge of larger circles. Those all seem legit.

If you examine the gilt writing on these UG dials, it does look good, but the orange lume is of a radium style that the faker uses for other watches, such as the Bundeswehr, so my guess is that the dial was without lume originally (just had the white circles) and that the person then put applied the orange lume across the entire empty circle. More recent dials look fake - the text just doesn't look correct for a UG, so the person may have run out of legit dials.

Just my 2 cents and conspiracy theory on the whole thing. Take it or leave it.

Last, the "GENE VE" dials have fonts without serifs on the "UNIVERSAL GENEVE" and "AUTOMATIC", whereas originals had serif fonts - another big issue/question for me.

Amen, brotha.

Thanks for taking the time to post all these references. I know the ebay seller(s) that you were talking about, who seemed to have a steady stream of faked Bundeswehr, JLC Polaris, and even a few Gubelin automatic moonphase watches... in addition to 2 or 3 UG subs that are obviously in question here. The sellers were based out of Ohio and California, and were two Asian men.

Around the same time these examples were selling, I purchased (and successfully returned, luckily) a fake black dialed Tri-Compax from a man with a Filipino sounding name in Australia. (NB: No racism afoot, by the way, just stating the facts). As I recall, there is an old post on the forum discussing this fake, in some detail. EDIT: here it is

The secret to these fakes was a drawer movement (usually correct for the reference), and a decently done redial. The cases were entirely fake. I haven't seen too many 'new' fakes of this type of late. Indeed, the ones that surface now seem to come to the market from people (from all over) reselling watches they may believe to be authentic.

My hunch is that there is or was some sort of counterfeiting group in Australia, who was pushing goods to a couple sellers in the United States. Based on the fact that they were counterfeiting Gubelin pieces, which wouldn't typically be anyone's first choice for a fake, I believe that these were crimes of opportunity, based on whatever drawer movements and assorted pieces they had available to them. The problem with the bezel inserts and UG dials is that these two parts were done to a level of fit and finish that far surpassed their results on the other fakes. This seems to imply that the counterfeiters had access to genuine UG parts, at some level. And, if they are legitimate UG parts, it stands to reason that UG may logically have used those parts in their own later production.

We can scheme up stories to explain all of this, but at the end of the day, it's all quite circumstantial evidence. We simply don't know. Hence my problem in stating that these examples are either: all authentic or all fake, with any certainty. Your skepticism, though, is quite valid.

Awesome details! I am glad I didn't pull the trigger and went for the aero instead!

No doubt your Aero-Compax is authentic!

I'm not convinced that your sub was a fake. To me, the cases are the weakest link in this analysis, and your super compressor case looked to be on the up and up. It was a second execution with the spacing issues on the "Geneve" signature on the dial. So everyone can come to their own conclusion, but I think we've roundly established that it was suspect.

Definitely, exactly what I found to be the case, woodwkr2. I know one of the sellers is 3duacon and is still selling questionable things, such as black dialed Rolex 6062s and a lot of fake converted pocketwatches (such as supposedly recased Vacherons that aren't actually Vacheron movements).

Agreed, LouS, that if we simply say: fake or not fake, these examples are fake.

I was more interested in the nuances, however, of teasing out which elements of the forgeries were likely genuine UG parts vs. Australian fabrications. That knowledge is foundational in evaluating the larger question at play here: Did UG ever produce a second execution polerouter sub? Would I buy one today, knowing what I know now? No.

Here is a picture of mine !

Dibs on rolokr's!

Fantastic, rolokr! I remember seeing your other fake one on PuristS and glad you found such a great one. Are those hands relumed?

Hands could be relumed, I've not had to many other hands to compare them to. Overall, it is one of the nicest examples I've seen. The one I had before, of the second execution, I sold for about $1500. I paid that much for it !