Any external 'tells' to differentiate between a 145.012 and 145.022 transitional?

FrankF · Dec 7, 2018

Hi all,

I recent acquired a vintage Speedmaster Professional and so joined the forum hoping you guys could help me out with a few questions I have about it.

I’ve tried for the most part to do as much research, (albeit solely web-based) as I could into the exactly reference of my Speedmaster before coming here to bother you guys but I’ve hit a bit of a fork in the road as I see it.
From what I can tell, (and I won’t go into details because I’m sure you guys will quickly pick the markers up) this Speedmaster is either a 145.012 67/68, or 145.022 68 transitional.

The braclet, crown and pushers are no longer originals unfortunately I don’t think, and the lames are missing from the minute and hour hands.

I initially thought it could possibly be a 105.012 CB as they were brought out not only with a double step caseback, but with a single step caseback like this reference.
I decided against this idea based upon closer inspection of the lugs, which I don’t fit with a CB case.

So that leaves a 145.012 67/68, or 145.022 68 based on the spear-shaped chrono hand. The 145.022 69 featuring the flat ended hand.
I’m guessing a 145.012 67/68 based on this lug shape differences shown in this post:

https://atgvintagewatches.com/atg-vintage-watches-forum/1365-speedmaster-anorak-thread.html?highlight=speedmaster case

Is there any way to tell which reference this watch is without opening it up to check inside?
I’ve added some pictures for you to have a look at and see what you think.

Thanks in advance for the help guys.

STANDY · Dec 7, 2018

FrankF
Is there any way to tell which reference this watch is without opening it up to check inside?

The way they are building speedmasters from parts lately it could be a mix of several models.

Best way is to open her up as serial number on movement, and case back number will reveal the answers you want.

Just guessing otherwise.

MaiLollo · Dec 7, 2018

There are no ways to tell. Some could argue that with a spear head chrono hand it's much more likely that it turns out to be an early 145.012-67, but you have to open it up (by a watchmaker) to know for sure.
You could also take a video of the watch while it runs and determine via slow motion if the movement is a 321 or an 861 (they have different beats per second ratings)

jimmyd13 · Dec 7, 2018

Lyre lug cases were produced from 1964 onwards and, though there were two types, they went unchanged. If I had to make a choice, I'd say that this wasn't a CB case but you can never be sure that there wasn't some polishing ... so look to the dial.

You've got the even spaced T's putting you after '66. The longer horizontal in the G makes you a "B3", produced in 66 to 69. The spear chrono with drop end is generally before '68 (though you do get them later). Best guess is you've got a 66 or 67. Only way to be sure is to get a look at the movement and serial number.

mr_yossarian · Dec 7, 2018

MaiLollo
There are no ways to tell. Some could argue that with a spear head chrono hand it's much more likely that it turns out to be an early 145.012-67, but you have to open it up (by a watchmaker) to know for sure.
You could also take a video of the watch while it runs and determine via slow motion if the movement is a 321 or an 861 (they have different beats per second ratings)

..or just wind it and listen to the movement, with some practice you can tell a 321 from a 861 😀

FrankF · Dec 7, 2018

I figured as much.
Not willing to open up myself so will have to find a watchmaker I trust.
Also thought about trying to time the movement but wasn't really sure how to go about this

jimmyd13 · Dec 7, 2018

mr_yossarian
..or just wind it and listen to the movement, with some practice you can tell a 321 from a 861 😀

Well, that's my morning gone .... guess I'm going to be winding watches and listening intently in silence.

FrankF · Dec 7, 2018

STANDY
The way they are building speedmasters from parts lately it could be a mix of several models.

Best way is to open her up as serial number on movement, and case back number will reveal the answers you want.

Just guessing otherwise.

As far I know, there was only one owner before me and he bought it new in the 60's so I think most of the parts should be orginal (besides those I stated above)

There anything that stand out as non-original looking to you?

mr_yossarian · Dec 7, 2018

jimmyd13
Lyre lug cases were produced from 1964 onwards and, though there were two types, they went unchanged. If I had to make a choice, I'd say that this wasn't a CB case but you can never be sure that there wasn't some polishing ... so look to the dial.

You've got the even spaced T's putting you after '66. The longer horizontal in the G makes you a "B3", produced in 66 to 69. The spear chrono with drop end is generally before '68 (though you do get them later). Best guess is you've got a 66 or 67. Only way to be sure is to get a look at the movement and serial number.

I am pretty sure it's a HF. The flat lugpart on the backside of the lugs is way narrower on the HF and I don't think you can/would polish it down without making a very obvious change.

FrankF · Dec 7, 2018

mr_yossarian
I am pretty sure it's a HF. The flat lugpart on the backside of the lugs is way narrower on the HF and I don't think you can/would polish it down without making a very obvious change.

From what I can tell, looking at the watch in person, it's a HF. There is no real visible sign to say CB.
Other than that, apart from opening her up, or timing the moment I guess there's no real way to tell whether this is a 145.012 or Transitional.

Thanks again for all the input and advice everyone. Appreciate it.

jimmyd13 · Dec 7, 2018

mr_yossarian
I am pretty sure it's a HF. The flat lugpart on the backside of the lugs is way narrower on the HF and I don't think you can/would polish it down without making a very obvious change.

I think so too ... i'm just covering my arse.

With the question of timing the watch to determine movement: someone gave a brilliant tip a few months ago. Film the watch running on your phone; replay in slow motion; count the "stutters" per second. 4 and it's a 321; 5 means it's an 861.

FrankF · Dec 7, 2018

jimmyd13
I think so too ... i'm just covering my arse.

With the question of timing the watch to determine movement: someone gave a brilliant tip a few months ago. Film the watch running on your phone; replay in slow motion; count the "stutters" per second. 4 and it's a 321; 5 means it's an 861.

Thanks! Will give it a go

stefman · Dec 7, 2018

The video is the best way to tell if you have a 321 or 861 inside. Take a slow motion video and count from there. Search the forum for detailed instructions. Good luck!

dscoogs · Dec 7, 2018

MaiLollo
There are no ways to tell. Some could argue that with a spear head chrono hand it's much more likely that it turns out to be an early 145.012-67, but you have to open it up (by a watchmaker) to know for sure.
You could also take a video of the watch while it runs and determine via slow motion if the movement is a 321 or an 861 (they have different beats per second ratings)

+1. My 012-67 and 022-68 have different chrono hands fortunately but otherwise no visual way to tell.

rcs914 · Dec 7, 2018

You should be able to use one of the phone apps to listen to it to tell what the beat rate is.

padders · Dec 7, 2018

Nasty crown on the OP watch. There is an easy way to tell a .12 from a .022 if you have the watch in hand. Use your iPhone (or similar) slow mo vid function and count the ticks between seconds on the chronometer second hand, that will tell you if it is a 321 or 861, it works and is pretty easy to spot. I think it is 5 increments for 321 and 6 for 861. I had a similar dilemma when I bought what I was convinced was a 145.022-69 and found it was in fact a 145.012-68 with a service dial, never assume!

ps if I had to guess, I would say that is a 321, the spear hand was being phased out in 1968 so there is a good chance it is not a 861.

FrankF · Dec 13, 2018

Thanks for the help all.
I'm having the watch opened up soon so I'll the know for certain.

ext1 · Dec 13, 2018

Actually, I think it would be pretty easy to tell if you know the feeling of the pushers when pushed of the 321 and 861. 321 pusher click feels kind of like a really strong computer mouse click while 861 pusher feels more like a mechanical switch.

Any external 'tells' to differentiate between a 145.012 and 145.022 transitional?

FrankF

STANDY

MaiLollo

jimmyd13

mr_yossarian

FrankF

jimmyd13

FrankF

mr_yossarian

FrankF

jimmyd13

FrankF

stefman

dscoogs

rcs914

padders

FrankF

ext1

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