A query- with apologies

johnireland · Sep 28, 2021

I have always been a vintage Rolex fan. If the OP's friend wants a sub, go with that and help him find a good one. But years ago I learned an important lesson. Buy the seller and not the watch. You want to buy from a person with a long and well established reputation of standing behind their watches 100%. There are a million subs (and GMTs and all sorts of Rolexes) and your friend can spend years looking at them and reading about them, and still make a mistake (as with any watch). That is why who he buys from is so important. When you buy from a seller/dealer, you will pay a markup...and why not, that is how they keeps the lights on and pay the rent. When you buy from a seller/collector you really won't save much if anything because they should be offering the best examples you can find. You want to person you are buying from to be able to document everything about the watch...that the bracelet is the matching (and ideally the original), that the crown and case tube are good condition, that the crystal is correct, you want to check the lum and make sure the age of the hands matches the ago of the rest of the dial.
There are dealers a thousand and more miles away that I would buy from without ever holding the watch in my hand. And there are dealers in my city I wouldn't waste my time and money on. Biggest single thing your friend can do is slow down, take deep breaths, keep his money in his pocket, and enjoy the hunt...and the learning experience.

Last thought. A warrantied service is desirable if you can document who did the service and see an itemized accounting of it. If there is no service guarantee, they put aside $1,000 to give it a full overhaul when you get it or within the first year. Yes a Rolex service is not cheap and it is not fast. But you get what you pay for. There is no free lunch.

Syrte · Sep 29, 2021

Thanks a lot for the thoughts @johnireland, certainly if he still wants to buy a Rolex sub I will suggest he slow down (a lot), take the time to learn, and I would seek referrals to trusted dealers.
However I certainly would not be able to help him distinguish the wheat from the shaff, and I would issue very strong warnings.

Pianotuna · Sep 30, 2021

Syrte
Ha, at the risk of adding insult to injury— if my colleague insists on getting an iconic vintage diver I will be suggesting he try a 1970s Seiko 😁

At the risk of getting mugged, and as an owner of a solitary Rolex (which I inherited but spent a small fortune servicing) AND as an owner of a couple of the big Seiko 1970 chronographs, that’s actually a pretty decent idea for someone who it sounds as if he has to buy to a budget. And if he has a budget, well he can’t afford a Sub, GMT or in fact nearly anything legitimate that says Oyster somewhere on it. That includes the Tudor.
Oh, yeah, the mugging.
Is he into watches already or is this hankering for a Rolex sub driven by some deep (or alternatively, shallow) yearning?
IF this is an impulse driven thing and he wants the ‘look’ then he could do a lot worse than buy a Steinhart OVM (preferably the first version). He gets a taste of the look without the expense, gets to smash it into doorways (my specialty) without having a breakdown over it, gets a half decent watch in the process And then if he likes it, set about finding the real McCoy.
If he doesn’t like it, well he saved himself a LOT of angst searching for a sub, and a safe dealer to sell one.

Syrte · Oct 1, 2021

Thanks for your thoughts @Pianotuna, he is indeed into watches— but not in a super informed way.

He asked me for advice a couple times, eg he has a Vostok diver he likes a lot and he asked me if it could be fixed, something was wrong with the winder IIRC but a randowm watchmaker had told him these watches could not be fixed. The watchmaker had never examined the mechanism or opened the watch before making the statement.

So maybe he would indeed be open to a Steinhart - the following post also has another suggestion for someone with big budget limitations.

Pianotuna · Oct 1, 2021

Syrte
Thanks for your thoughts @Pianotuna, he is indeed into watches— but not in a super informed way.

He asked me for advice a couple times, eg he has a Vostok diver he likes a lot and he asked me if it could be fixed, something was wrong with the winder IIRC but a randowm watchmaker had told him these watches could not be fixed. The watchmaker had never examined the mechanism or opened the watch before making the statement.

So maybe he would indeed be open to a Steinhart - the following post also has another suggestion for someone with big budget limitations.

I suggest the Steinhart only because I have several and know the brand. But, there’s a few out there that ticks the Sub box IMO. For the record the OVM version 1 is the one to chase.
The Vostoks are becoming a bit of a thing, I think I’d ask for a second opinion. Which leads to, I don’t understand why professional people make these comments without personal experience or at least, informed opinion. History suggests your mate’s watch might not be beautifully finished but will be easy to service and built like a truck. People offer ill-informed opinions in my game too, usually concerning something about which they have no idea.

Foo2rama · Oct 1, 2021

Bobswatches.com

very well respected dealer.

Scarecrow Boat · Oct 1, 2021

Foo2rama
Bobswatches.com

very well respected dealer.

Agreed but also one to pay attention with as they often have very over polished Rolex’s listed in excellent condition.

Foo2rama · Oct 1, 2021

Scarecrow Boat
Agreed but also one to pay attention with as they often have very over polished Rolex’s listed in excellent condition.

True but overall I trust them highly. You do not get to be in their position by being a bad seller.

they can even call you when a source that matches your description becomes available.
Now it might not be as cheap that way….

ATWG · Oct 1, 2021

I do not respect them as a vintage Rolex dealer. Most of their watches are Avg - below avg condition with premium prices. On occasion, they’ll put up a decent watch which hasn’t been rummaged for parts, but that’s more the exception than the rule.

Scarecrow Boat · Oct 1, 2021

Foo2rama
True but overall I trust them highly. You do not get to be in their position by being a bad seller.

they can even call you when a source that matches your description becomes available.
Now it might not be as cheap that way….

I used to live relatively close to them and before their renovation had stopped by a few times and enjoyed talking to them. Last year I bought a '93 Sub (from another dealer) and noticed how many of Bob's subs had bird beak crowns and thin lugs. No matter how reputable a dealer is, it is always wise to go in informed and know what to look for 😀 But I do like the people at Bob's👍

Foo2rama · Oct 1, 2021

Scarecrow Boat
I used to live relatively close to them and before their renovation had stopped by a few times and enjoyed talking to them. Last year I bought a '93 Sub (from another dealer) and noticed how many of Bob's subs had bird beak crowns and thin lugs. No matter how reputable a dealer is, it is always wise to go in informed and know what to look for 😀 But I do like the people at Bob's👍

They are close to me as well 😉

I need to head over and start a better relationship with them.

Dan S · Oct 1, 2021

ATWG
I do not respect them as a vintage Rolex dealer. Most of their watches are Avg - below avg condition with premium prices. On occasion, they’ll put up a decent watch which hasn’t been rummaged for parts, but that’s more the exception than the rule.

Sometimes you see the owner of Bob's selling something good in the sales section of Rolexforums. And I suspect he might sell good pieces to his network through back channels. But you're right that the good pieces don't tend to get listed on the site.

Syrte · Oct 2, 2021

Pianotuna
I suggest the Steinhart only because I have several and know the brand

Thanks again for the suggestion, I will convey it for sure.
Also thanks gentlemen for all of the additional info.

RonJ · Oct 2, 2021

I have an older GMT and like it very much.
I have no idea what specific model it is or how much they sell for these day.
I think someone on here said it might be a late 1980's model or so.
I bought it second-hand about 20 years ago and it did not come with a box or papers unfortunately.
I should take off the bracelet one of these days and photograph the model number and serial number on the top & bottom of the case.

Does anyone know how to find stainless Rolex watches like mine where the owner might sell it some day (for a fair price).

The black bezel on a GMT is an interesting ownership experience because often people compliment me on my "Submariner".
I guess they are about the same size back then.

morningtundra · Oct 6, 2021

Last of the "GMT-Master". A transitional 5-digit reference before the "GMT Master II" (ref 16710 which arrived 1989?).
Sapphire crystal, glossy dial, I'd guess ref 16700 (1988 - 1990-ish)? If so, kinda rare and unusual transitional reference 😀

Syrte · Oct 23, 2021

Dan S
90s tritium 14060 (no-date) or 16610 (date) would probably be his best entry point with a vintage look, since the lume has yellowed on some of them. They can still be found under $10k. I know that this will sound like a high price for him, but five years from now, these models will probably only be further out of reach.

One thing that might make the cost sting a little less is that Subs are almost as liquid as cash, so if he gets a good watch at a fair price, he can always recover his money if he has second thoughts.

Thank you @Dan S, as it turns out my colleague may well try to follow your suggestion, with help from friends and family.
So again thank you - now he needs to find a reputable seller in France who might sell those as he doesn’t have the stomach to get a watch likz this shipped around.

Thanks also @ATWG and all those who contributed guidance.
all the best:
S

Dan S · Oct 23, 2021

Syrte
Thank you @Dan S, as it turns out my colleague may well try to follow your suggestion, with help from friends and family.
So again thank you - now he needs to find a reputable seller in France who might sell those as he doesn’t have the stomach to get a watch likz this shipped around.

Thanks also @ATWG and all those who contributed guidance.
all the best:
S

The dealer that comes to mind immediately is Jerome Fellous. Nothing appropriate listed on his site at the moment, but your friend could contact him and ask him to find one. This is a more expensive approach obviously.
https://watchmywatch.fr/product-category/submariner/

Also, have your friend monitor the sales forums (e.g. using watchrecon.com) for watches sold by private owners across Europe, it could be worth a train ride. There is even one from Europe for sale on this forum at the moment, although the current asking price feels a bit high to me (hopefully I'm not out of line in saying that).

morningtundra · Oct 24, 2021

RonJ
Does anyone know how to find stainless Rolex watches like mine where the owner might sell it some day (for a fair price).

I have heard of one dealer who visits old people's homes (and assisted living facilities) and posts "WTB" notes on the bulletin boards in the common areas. He claims to get decent responses from people looking to sell unwanted heirlooms. Apparently, he gets as many inquiries from the "kids" as he does from owners. He admits it's mostly tat but occasionally gets offered something interesting.

Syrte · Oct 24, 2021

Dan S
The dealer that comes to mind immediately is Jerome Fellous. Nothing appropriate listed on his site at the moment, but your friend could contact him and ask him to find one. This is a more expensive approach obviously.
https://watchmywatch.fr/product-category/submariner/

Also, have your friend monitor the sales forums (e.g. using watchrecon.com) for watches sold by private owners across Europe, it could be worth a train ride. There is even one from Europe for sale on this forum at the moment, although the current asking price feels a bit high to me (hopefully I'm not out of line in saying that).

Thanks so much for the additional guidance, don’t you think on various sales forum the risks are extremely high for a novice? I’d be scared doing it myself given all of the known tampering with Rolexes. However he does apparently have a relative who is a bit of a collector and could help him validate watches. I will pass on the suggestions, many thanks again.

Dan S · Oct 24, 2021

Syrte
Thanks so much for the additional guidance, don’t you think on various sales forum the risks are extremely high for a novice? I’d be scared doing it myself given all of the known tampering with Rolexes. However he does apparently have a relative who is a bit of a collector and could help him validate watches. I will pass on the suggestions, many thanks again.

Yes, clearly there is more risk in buying from a private seller, but maybe not as much for these neo-vintage references as for older 4-digit models IMO. Even so, it's generally hard for me to stomach dealer pricing for a commodity watch like these.

In any case, regardless of where he finds the watch, it would be a good reaction to double-check a potential purchase by posting good photos on a forum or checking with an expert like @ATWG or @morningtundra or a few others I could name.

A query- with apologies

johnireland

Syrte

Pianotuna

Syrte

Pianotuna

Foo2rama

Scarecrow Boat

Foo2rama

ATWG

Scarecrow Boat

Foo2rama

Dan S

Syrte

RonJ

morningtundra

Syrte

Dan S

morningtundra

Syrte

Dan S

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