A query- with apologies

Syrte · Sep 28, 2021

Dear everyone,
i hope you will forgive me for free riding on the knowledge of this subforum- as I am asking this without having done any homework.
A colleague of mine who I like just came to me asking for advice on the best way to buy a 1980s Rolex submariner.
He is a person of ordinary means, my advice was “forget it”, as I told him the budget would have to be in the vicinity of 15K euros -not to mention the pitfalls of “enhanced restorations.”

Is the 15K figure about correct? For GMT in good condition with nice lume I believe it is but would there be references for much lower budgets?
Does the price tag come down significantly if he pursues a 1990s reference, and maybe one that’s less fashionable?

Just to clarify, I have no intent to cream any valuable expert knowledge here - I intend to tell this person he would be out of his depth and so would I.
But I’m curious whether the figure I cited him was correct and whether there are alternatives.

Many thanks and best regards,
S

JimInOz · Sep 28, 2021

As an ex-owner of a 1980s Submariner, and the current owner of the modern equivalent, I understand his desire to own one of these iconic watches.

However, I would suggest he steps back and takes a few deep breaths (and lots and lots of research) before even looking for one.

Unfortunately, this watch has become the greatest minefield in watch collecting history, and unless you know EXACTLY what you're doing, the consequences can be disastrous.

Sorry that this is the only advice I can offer.

Fallout Boy · Sep 28, 2021

@JimInOz: EXACTLY!!!! And after the few deep breaths, he should consider to leave the "mined terrain" and head towards an (younger!) Explorer II 😁
edited:

ATWG · Sep 28, 2021

Hi there - this is a very broad question as there are so many nuances. I’ll try to brush with broad strokes, your friend will need to refine his research a bit to narrow his choices. I can speak to the market in US which is always slightly cheaper than EU.

You can find nice late 80’s/90’s Glossy dial Subs for around $10KUSD. Glossy 16800 and 5513 models made in the 80’s will be around $12-13K without B&P depending on condition and patina on the markers. If you look for 16610 or 14060 reference made in 90’s - 2000, the price drops to $10-12K with B&P’s.

GMTs are a lot more sought after than Subs making them more expensive. A very nice exceptional full set 16710 runs around $15K. This reference spanned from late 80s to mid-2000s. The 16700, which was also in production in late 80s, is slightly cheaper and brings a lot of value. These can be found for around $10-11K without B&P. I can go on for days about differences in the models, I’ll leave that fun for your friend.

As for where to buy one, there are tons of dealers in the US that will ship to EU. As a novice, I’d stay away from eBay. PM me if you want a list of dealers.

Lastly, it all depends on his preference. I own both, they wear differently. The sub his bulkier and heavier watch vs the GMT. The GMT is more versatile as the insert can be swapped from a Pepsi to a Coke or all black. For my money, nothing beats a nice, clean full set GMT. It’s a timeless watch which keeps appreciating in both value and appearance.

Best.
-A

Darlinboy · Sep 28, 2021

Whew ... good to know you are not here to "cream any valuable expert knowledge" - because I don't have any of that. No doubt others will weigh in, but here is my take...

For 15k you can certainly find an 80's GMT or Sub (date or no), and a nice one at that. But, as Jim notes, you really have to know what you are doing, and be willing to strike fast when the opportunity presents itself. There are really no "less fashionable" versions of these references, prices remain elevated across the board, condition being the most significant variable. If your colleague is willing to accept OEM service dial/bezel/etc the field grows wider.

You haven't given us your colleague's realistic budget, so it is difficult to suggest alternatives.

Good luck to your colleague with the hunt, wherever he ends up. 👍

Syrte · Sep 28, 2021

Many thanks dear gentlemen, @ATWG thank you for kindly taking the time to elaborate on a few distinctions and to improve my overall watch literacy, which is very low in this department.

Your replies are confirming my hunch that those watches are waaaay out of my colleague’s reach. He hasn’t mentioned a budget but I am convinced even 5K is a massive amount of cash for him, and that he had absolutely no idea what he was getting himself into.

My plan is to steer him towards much more modest references if he insists on vintage Rolex,
Or a Tudor Black Bay 58 or a Longines Legend Diver if he insists on a dive watch … 😉

Fallout Boy · Sep 28, 2021

steel - vintage - 5k:
e.g. IWC Ingenieur or Pilot Mk XII (IMO absolutely underrated) or a nice SM 60 big crown

bonne chance 👍

Dan S · Sep 28, 2021

Syrte
He hasn’t mentioned a budget but I am convinced even 5K is a massive amount of cash for him, and that he had absolutely no idea what he was getting himself into.

My plan is to steer him towards much more modest references if he insists on vintage Rolex,
Or a Tudor Black Bay 58 or a Longines Legend Diver if he insists on a dive watch …

Unfortunately, as you suspected, the ship has sailed on 5k€ Submariners, and Alex gave you a great summary on the current market.1980s Tudor Subs are a bit less, but still pushing 10k. While there are many fantastic vintage divers that he can find for 5k€, it is a bit hard to scratch the itch for a Sub with anything else. And I'm not sure that a Datejust (for example), will be a good substitute.

If he can stretch his budget, a 90s tritium 14060 (no-date) or 16610 (date) would probably be his best entry point with a vintage look, since the lume has yellowed on some of them. They can still be found under $10k. I know that this will sound like a high price for him, but five years from now, these models will probably only be further out of reach.

One thing that might make the cost sting a little less is that Subs are almost as liquid as cash, so if he gets a good watch at a fair price, he can always recover his money if he has second thoughts.

Faz · Sep 28, 2021

Syrte
Or a Tudor Black Bay 58 or a Longines Legend Diver if he insists on a dive watch … 😉

Those are absolutely great choices. Obviously the crazy prices commanded by any Rolex watch has become a huge turnoff. But more importantly, I've come to realize that over the years, unless you have a competent watchmaker with a source for Rolex parts, servicing any Rolex has become a source of stress that goes against the grain of the pleasure of owning such a watch. The Tudor Black Bay divers and GMT seem to be a tremendous value. Their DNA is unmistakable yet indisputably Tudor. I for one have been exploring other brands and been completely ignoring anything Rolex. They truly have become out of reach for most aficionados with more modest means.

ATWG · Sep 28, 2021

I agree, I love Tudor's in that price range. Also, he could look at 90's Speedmasters which are quickly rising in value. The Speedy's of that era have great patina and lots of character.....granted, it's no Rolex, it's still a beautiful neo-vintage watch.

Shabbaz · Sep 28, 2021

You can still buy a 90's non-tritium sub or sea dweller for around 8 - 8,5k euro.

Shabbaz · Sep 28, 2021

ATWG
I agree, I love Tudor's in that price range. Also, he could look at 90's Speedmasters which are quickly rising in value. The Speedy's of that era have great patina and lots of character.....granted, it's no Rolex, it's still a beautiful neo-vintage watch.

Yes. They are nice. Lots of watch for the money

Syrte · Sep 28, 2021

Dan S
it is a bit hard to scratch the itch for a Sub with anything else. And I'm not sure that a Datejust (for example), will be a good substitute.

If he can stretch his budget, a 90s tritium 14060 (no-date) or 16610 (date) would probably be his best entry point with a vintage look, since the lume has yellowed on some of them. They can still be found under $10k. I know that this will sound like a high price for him, but…

One thing that might make the cost sting a little less is that Subs are almost as liquid as cash, so if he gets a good watch at a fair price, he can always recover his money if he has second thoughts.

@Dan S thanks for putting things in perspective as it is indeed very true those subs have a unique design.

Thanks @Fallout Boy @ATWG @Shabbaz @Faz for your thoughts and alternative suggestions, what’s the going rate for a decent 1990s Speedy these days?

Shabbaz · Sep 28, 2021

Syrte
@Dan S thanks for putting things in perspective as it is indeed very true those subs have a unique design.

Thanks @Fallout Boy @ATWG @Shabbaz @Faz for your thoughts and alternative suggestions, what’s the going rate for a decent 1990s Speedy these days?

Last time I've checked (couple of months ago) you can still buy one between 3 and 4k euro. That's what I paid for these two 90's.

Edit: without bracelet

Syrte · Sep 28, 2021

Shabbaz
Last time I've checked (couple of months ago) you can still buy one between 3 and 4k euro. That's what I paid for these two 90's.

Edit: without bracelet

Many thanks, and those look nice 👍

Servius · Sep 28, 2021

As expected for a thread on OF, you start asking about Rolexes and in less than a page there’s more Speedmasters than crowns 😁

I had the exact same discussion with a relative, who wanted a nice watch for her husband. She was quite surprised about the huge price rise… Turns out to be complicated to find a Rolex alternative for a non-watch person…

Joe_A · Sep 28, 2021

Am I wrong in what I am thinking?

I am thinking that most people who want a Rolex, would not be satisfied with a Patek or an A-P or a V-C. Such an appetite would likely not be satiated with a JLC or a GP or any Omega.

A. Lange & Sohne? What the hell is that?

Why are there so many Rolex watches in the world, one wonders? 😉

Syrte · Sep 28, 2021

Joe_A
Am I wrong in what I am thinking?

I am thinking that most people who want a Rolex, would not be satisfied with a Patek or an A-P or a V-C. Such an appetite would likely not be satiated with a JLC or a GP or any Omega.

A. Lange & Sohne? What the hell is that?

Why are there so many Rolex watches in the world, one wonders? 😉

Servius
As expected for a thread on OF, you start asking about Rolexes and in less than a page there’s more Speedmasters than crowns 😁

…

Ha, at the risk of adding insult to injury— if my colleague insists on getting an iconic vintage diver I will be suggesting he try a 1970s Seiko 😁

Joe_A · Sep 28, 2021

Syrte
Ha, at the risk of adding insult to injury— if my colleague insists on getting an iconic vintage diver I will be suggesting he try a 1970s Seiko 😁

Perhaps a Panerai?

Assuming it would not be confused with Cinemascope!

watch3s · Sep 28, 2021

he can, vintage is such a mine field. Id suggest he reconsider, to neo vintage or classic rolex. Seadwellers could be had for around $10-11k in good shape. That seems to be the best bargain on the market atm.

A query- with apologies

Syrte

JimInOz

Fallout Boy

ATWG

Darlinboy

Syrte

Fallout Boy

Dan S

Faz

ATWG

Shabbaz

Shabbaz

Syrte

Shabbaz

Syrte

Servius

Joe_A

Syrte

Joe_A

watch3s

Similar threads

Apologies to a stranger with a GMT-Master 1675

UPDATE!!!!!! Advice please and apologies in advance.....

Apologies for the link only, but have I learned anything in the last 3 years??

The Channel crosser: a Speedmaster’s tale

New Member (from Western MA), with a query about watchmakers in Boston/Southern NE

145.022-71 Speedmaster Query (with pics)