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Noles_88
·Also take into account. Many collectors sell between themselves. Many have answered wtb posts as well.
Where have all the vintage speedmasters gone?
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Maitreyoda007
·They are waiting for 2019 and the 50th birthday of the moon walk....
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arcadelt
·They are waiting for 2019 and the 50th birthday of the moon walk....
Wouldn’t have thought they were in the same market - overlap perhaps for some collectors, but can't imagine the Apollo 11 50th Anniversary Limited Edition would have much of an affect on the vintage watch market.
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jaguar11
·Mine is where it has usually been for the past 20 years. On my wrist. As already mentioned though time of year...
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STANDY
··schizophrenic pizza orderer and watch collectorIt's simply not Watch Season
Don't worry, they're out there. Wait til watch season starts at the end of January. It seems to be at peak in March into April, then tapers off.
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MaiLollo
·People want 321 Speedmasters. I don't see how there could be a "bubble" here, when you think that a nice 145.012-67 for instance is maybe at 2x the price of a new Speed at retail, whereas a 6263/6239 is 4/5x the retail of a new daytonaC. Coupled with the fact that the Vintage/New ratio must be much lower in 321 Speedmasters vs the Dyatonas', I don't see the issue.
Plus, people love the Speedmaster.
The way I'd see prices decrease is if the collectors that wanted one badly find enough to make them happy and newer demand isn't that high (which is what happened on the DON market, as far as I'm concerned) or if people lose interest in vintage sports watches all of a sudden...
Plus, people love the Speedmaster.
The way I'd see prices decrease is if the collectors that wanted one badly find enough to make them happy and newer demand isn't that high (which is what happened on the DON market, as far as I'm concerned) or if people lose interest in vintage sports watches all of a sudden...
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murph
·Hey guys - if I may add my commentary from what I see in the Speedmaster market:
@omegaswisst - It depends on what you define as vintage. I would just say that there is not much trouble at all finding more modern "vintage" Speedys from the 70s-80s , but that the general supply of Cal. 321 Speedmasters has seemingly dried up. To be fair and clear - Cal. 321 Speedmasters are far rarer than most people realize - but many collectors I have spoken with lately seem to be holding their Curved Lug Cal.321s for the upcoming anniversary of the moon landing in 2019.
@pitpro - Its all so cyclical. Though, I think Speedmasters are more undervalued than they are "bubble" watches. I would agree with the idea though that some people have gotten greedy when it comes to the value of their watches as well. But again - the PreMoon Speedmasters are really so much rarer than people understand.
Anyways, my two cents - and my first post. I think you will see activity pick up. We are only 16 days into 2018!
-GQ
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STANDY
··schizophrenic pizza orderer and watch collectorregarding PreMoon rarity- Would you or anyone else please elaborate. Thanks
Easy
Heap of Rolex collectors got priced out of the Rolex market ( and some shenanigans with dial swaps for profit ) and started buying vintage Speedmasters now there is not as many floating around.
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eugeneandresson
·regarding PreMoon rarity- Would you or anyone else please elaborate. Thanks
Also, according to MWO (which is still an estimate) :
NEVERTHELESS WE ARE ABLE TO ESTIMATE THE VOLUME OF {SPEEDMASTERS} FITTED WITH THE CALIBER 321 AT APPROXIMATELY 80’000 TO 83’000 WATCHES.
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murph
·Also, according to MWO (which is still an estimate) :
NEVERTHELESS WE ARE ABLE TO ESTIMATE THE VOLUME OF {SPEEDMASTERS} FITTED WITH THE CALIBER 321 AT APPROXIMATELY 80’000 TO 83’000 WATCHES.
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Rman
·The act of buying a watch takes no effort. The act of listing and selling a watch takes considerable effort.
Something often left out of these conversations.
At what rate do most collectors buy vs sell? I would guess most of us sell at a much lower rate, diminishing supply.
Something often left out of these conversations.
At what rate do most collectors buy vs sell? I would guess most of us sell at a much lower rate, diminishing supply.
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wouter van wijk
·Actually wanted a 78 birthyear speedy. After more than one year searching and ended up buying a new one in2016. traded it for a flightmaster since I prefer vintage
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GentlemanQ
·@omegaswisst - Understood, I had assumed you meant the Cal. 321 powered Speedmasters.
@murph , There is unfortunately no exact way to know how many Speedmasters were made. The best kept (or worst kept) secret of Speedmasters is that every Speedmaster is basically and assembled watch from parts. Cal. 321 production was essentially done around 1960 and watches were put together from ordered parts. As "old" parts ran out, Omega began using the new parts. Hence the variations between sub-references and the bleed between references. A 2915-3 looks an awful lot like a 2998-1, and the 2998 has seemingly infinite variations for a model with such a short run.
So while an exact number on 321 Speedmasters cannot be given, comparative rarity towards a model (like the V72 powered Daytona) can. These are infinitely rarer watches than a V72 Daytona. For a variety of reasons outlined in the comments above, getting priced out of Rolex, renewed interest in the Apollo & Gemini Era Space Programs, etc - people have begun to realize how valuable these are.
I would also say that I make my own distinction between what is a Speedmaster, and what is a Moonwatch. Anything with Straight Lugs is Speedmaster, all else is a Moonwatch. I am more than happy to go into that in greater detail, but I do not want to stray too far from the questions at hand!
@jricketts65 - Nice find on yours. Goodluck.
@murph , There is unfortunately no exact way to know how many Speedmasters were made. The best kept (or worst kept) secret of Speedmasters is that every Speedmaster is basically and assembled watch from parts. Cal. 321 production was essentially done around 1960 and watches were put together from ordered parts. As "old" parts ran out, Omega began using the new parts. Hence the variations between sub-references and the bleed between references. A 2915-3 looks an awful lot like a 2998-1, and the 2998 has seemingly infinite variations for a model with such a short run.
So while an exact number on 321 Speedmasters cannot be given, comparative rarity towards a model (like the V72 powered Daytona) can. These are infinitely rarer watches than a V72 Daytona. For a variety of reasons outlined in the comments above, getting priced out of Rolex, renewed interest in the Apollo & Gemini Era Space Programs, etc - people have begun to realize how valuable these are.
I would also say that I make my own distinction between what is a Speedmaster, and what is a Moonwatch. Anything with Straight Lugs is Speedmaster, all else is a Moonwatch. I am more than happy to go into that in greater detail, but I do not want to stray too far from the questions at hand!
@jricketts65 - Nice find on yours. Goodluck.
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gemini4
··Hoarder Of Speed et alia@omegaswisst - Understood, I had assumed you meant the Cal. 321 powered Speedmasters.
@murph , There is unfortunately no exact way to know how many Speedmasters were made. The best kept (or worst kept) secret of Speedmasters is that every Speedmaster is basically and assembled watch from parts. Cal. 321 production was essentially done around 1960 and watches were put together from ordered parts. As "old" parts ran out, Omega began using the new parts. Hence the variations between sub-references and the bleed between references. A 2915-3 looks an awful lot like a 2998-1, and the 2998 has seemingly infinite variations for a model with such a short run.
So while an exact number on 321 Speedmasters cannot be given, comparative rarity towards a model (like the V72 powered Daytona) can. These are infinitely rarer watches than a V72 Daytona. For a variety of reasons outlined in the comments above, getting priced out of Rolex, renewed interest in the Apollo & Gemini Era Space Programs, etc - people have begun to realize how valuable these are.
I would also say that I make my own distinction between what is a Speedmaster, and what is a Moonwatch. Anything with Straight Lugs is Speedmaster, all else is a Moonwatch. I am more than happy to go into that in greater detail, but I do not want to stray too far from the questions at hand!
@jricketts65 - Nice find on yours. Goodluck.
Welcome to another Rolex Refugee Pontificator 😁
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GentlemanQ
·@gemini4 - no no haha I have only ever owned one Rolex and I currently own none. I am a Speedmaster guy haha.
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MCC
·" Cal. 321 production was essentially done around 1960 and watches were put together from ordered parts. As "old" parts ran out, Omega began using the new parts. Hence the variations between sub-references and the bleed between references. A 2915-3 looks an awful lot like a 2998-1, and the 2998 has seemingly infinite variations for a model with such a short run."
In my view this is one of the things that makes Speedmasters fascinating and often difficult to verify as 100% original. I have spent a lot of time looking at the differences between the later 2998 sub-references (ie 2998- 5, 6, 61 ,62). The visible differences are mainly down to the hands where early 2998 -5 from leaf subdial hands to stick. In the early 2998 - 6 the chrono hands seemed to change from straight to spear and they remained spear thereafter. So my question is has anyone seen a 2998-6 with a lower serial range ie 184XXXXX, 185XXXXX or 186XXXXX that they know to be original with spear hands?
Equally is there any chronology when the 105.002 moved from Alpha to Baton hands. Baton was clearly used at the end of the run but was there a clear period when both were being produced? I guess the number of hands replaced at a later date makes this even more difficult to answer.
In my view this is one of the things that makes Speedmasters fascinating and often difficult to verify as 100% original. I have spent a lot of time looking at the differences between the later 2998 sub-references (ie 2998- 5, 6, 61 ,62). The visible differences are mainly down to the hands where early 2998 -5 from leaf subdial hands to stick. In the early 2998 - 6 the chrono hands seemed to change from straight to spear and they remained spear thereafter. So my question is has anyone seen a 2998-6 with a lower serial range ie 184XXXXX, 185XXXXX or 186XXXXX that they know to be original with spear hands?
Equally is there any chronology when the 105.002 moved from Alpha to Baton hands. Baton was clearly used at the end of the run but was there a clear period when both were being produced? I guess the number of hands replaced at a later date makes this even more difficult to answer.
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gemini4
··Hoarder Of Speed et aliaI believe
The jump from leaf to straight sub reg hands occurred during the 2998-4 production.
All correct 2998-5 and 6 have straight sub reg hands
20xxxxxx is usually considered the dividing line for 105.002-62 with alpha vs baton hands.
The jump from leaf to straight sub reg hands occurred during the 2998-4 production.
All correct 2998-5 and 6 have straight sub reg hands
20xxxxxx is usually considered the dividing line for 105.002-62 with alpha vs baton hands.
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MCC
·I believe
The jump from leaf to straight sub reg hands occurred during the 2998-4 production.
All correct 2998-5 and 6 have straight sub reg hands
20xxxxxx is usually considered the dividing line for 105.002-62 with alpha vs baton hands.
Thanks, for the response very interesting on the 105.002-62 dividing line.
Everything I have read including MWO and Speedmaster 101 agrees with your point that 2998-5 had baton hands which makes me wonder why you see pictures of some with leaf hands including the one at the Philips auction a couple of years back. I assume they must either be deliberately changed or simply the ones that some watchmaker had at some point during a service.
What about the chrono hands. The later models all appear to be spear and assume the change happened at the end of 2998-5 and the beginning of 2998 -6 ?
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The_Walrus
·My thoughts are this-
I came here to OF from VRF. I bought some of the Rolexes I wanted
and thought was better value in Omega's and because I always had
loved the Speedmaster since I was a boy. I never went back. I enjoy
this forum much more than I did VRF because of the people here for one.
Pedantics generally don't get personal here. The interface is the best in the
watch world, and the people here are very willing to share their knowledge
and help other member's.
Now to answer your question. If the Rolex world is any example, Omega prices
have a long way to run and for many years. Lots of that Rolex collector money
is now Omega money looking for better value for those collector dollars.
Buy what you can afford and what floats your boat and you won't have any worries.
I too crossed the divide from Rolex (and TRF) to the Speedmaster ( and obviously this forum).
A factor was the escalating prices of Rolex and the realization of the value a pre-moon offered. Given its pedigree it is a much more interesting watch.
It would interesting whether a link between vintage Rolex prices (i.e subs and gmt's) can be drawn to 321's.
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apm1
·I think a link can be drawn between vintage Rolex Submariners (5513/5512) and vintage Seamasters 300.
In the past the spread between the two was large, with Rolex behing sold a premium. Now, there is no gap anymore. Actually in come cases the SM300 is valued more than a nice meter first 5513. Especially the big triangle no date.
In the past the spread between the two was large, with Rolex behing sold a premium. Now, there is no gap anymore. Actually in come cases the SM300 is valued more than a nice meter first 5513. Especially the big triangle no date.
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