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<walking on eggshells...> - recognizing cosmetically enhanced 1675's?
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spin_transistor
·Having new matching father / son GMT’s today would be no easy feat or minimal expense!!
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mr_yossarian
·Went through this one completely again and bringing it up again.
If you ask me: one of the best and most important threads from - at least - this year. Don't want it to vanish in the depths of the database.
Read it if you haven't yet, read it..
If you ask me: one of the best and most important threads from - at least - this year. Don't want it to vanish in the depths of the database.
Read it if you haven't yet, read it..
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watchknut
·Wearing mine today...
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Gstp
·Original owners stories, grandfathers who never touched their watches.... I wouldn't trust any of them. Not even my own grandfather. People don't remember stuff like this. Whether they bought it in 68 or 74, wheteher its been serviced or not..just try to remember which service your car got in 1988.....unless you have bona fide proof forget it, its just another watch that has to be judged for what it is.
And those presenting high value pieces in forums with "bought it from original owner" .....could also be part of building up a solid back story for something they want to sell later... bubble economy attracts all kind of people
And those presenting high value pieces in forums with "bought it from original owner" .....could also be part of building up a solid back story for something they want to sell later... bubble economy attracts all kind of people
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ATWG
·Went through this one completely again and bringing it up again.
If you ask me: one of the best and most important threads from - at least - this year. Don't want it to vanish in the depths of the database.
Read it if you haven't yet, read it..
I urge everyone to conduct their due diligence accordingly and nothing beats handling the watch in person prior to making a final decision.
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mr_yossarian
·Agreed. For those who are new to vintage GMT's, it's an eye opener, for more seasoned collectors it's become the norm. Tons of fake mid-cases, dials, hands and inserts floating around. Heck, a few that were posted on OF even raised my suspension. See if the story hangs, is the mid-case too clean but the dial and hands show signs of wear. How does the caseback look? Is it too new or shiny to be appropriate for a 40+yr old watch? How does the crown guard and lug holes look compared to the rest of the watch? Re-cut, not a problem as long as all different parts of the watch corroborate the condition.
I urge everyone to conduct their due diligence accordingly and nothing beats handling the watch in person prior to making a final decision.
I really waded through so much sh** for months, for all those reasons you mention.
I came across dealers and watches, well mostly across dealers and watches in conjunction that told me..stay away from these behaviours, missing disclosed flaws, one original owner-tales, all original tales ( with obvious wrong/later dials in the easiest cases..), unpolished-tales (shiny case, but totally rounded crown guards like someone carried the watch around in it's arse for years) and on and on...
It actually took more time to find someone I want to buy from in the "open" market, someone who is straight forward with what he offers than to find a watch you like and that appears to be unprepped.
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watch3s
·vintage is a minefield, and not for the uninitiated. I always appreciate the insight of the collectors and those more knowledgeable. That and patience, patience is key.
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djmusicman
·https://www.instagram.com/p/BmwiI9nHQVs/?hl=en&taken-by=losangeleswatchworks
Take a look at the work of LA Watchworks, look at the comments. Most people (on instagram) love the look of the cases that they have restored. They have a lot of fans, not everyone is so negative!
Of course a true watch nerd would spot that the lugs became thinner in the process. That's the choice, soft rounded lugs or sharp but slightly thinner ones.
Why aren't more people complaining about the fact that Rolex wrecked the cases of most of their watches with polishing wheels during service? And it went on for decades.
Concerning watch dealers, most of the ones that I've come into contact with are dishonest, here is a recent example:
The 145.012 that I posted about last week. It was all original according to the dealer. I specifically asked about the lume on the hands, of course it was original tritium, 100% sure. However he'd made the mistake of posting it on instagram "pre-op" with grubby old hands 3 weeks before! When I bought that up he said "I'll have to check, I'll call you back" and later a story about how his partner has had the hands relumed without him knowing.
It took him about 2 minutes to delete the picture from Instagram 😉
View attachment 623940
Take a look at the work of LA Watchworks, look at the comments. Most people (on instagram) love the look of the cases that they have restored. They have a lot of fans, not everyone is so negative!
Of course a true watch nerd would spot that the lugs became thinner in the process. That's the choice, soft rounded lugs or sharp but slightly thinner ones.
Why aren't more people complaining about the fact that Rolex wrecked the cases of most of their watches with polishing wheels during service? And it went on for decades.
Concerning watch dealers, most of the ones that I've come into contact with are dishonest, here is a recent example:
The 145.012 that I posted about last week. It was all original according to the dealer. I specifically asked about the lume on the hands, of course it was original tritium, 100% sure. However he'd made the mistake of posting it on instagram "pre-op" with grubby old hands 3 weeks before! When I bought that up he said "I'll have to check, I'll call you back" and later a story about how his partner has had the hands relumed without him knowing.
It took him about 2 minutes to delete the picture from Instagram 😉
View attachment 623940
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many
·https://www.instagram.com/p/BmwiI9nHQVs/?hl=en&taken-by=losangeleswatchworks
Of course a true watch nerd would spot that the lugs became thinner in the process. That's the choice, soft rounded lugs or sharp but slightly thinner ones.
View attachment 623940
Are they thinner? I was under the impression that material was added and then polished.
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djmusicman
·Are they thinner? I was under the impression that material was added and then polished.
RE: GMT 1675. They are thinner for sure, look how thin that bottom right lug:
Not the exact same model (different crown guards) but you get the idea, this is the unpolished one:
https://www.watchprosite.com/rolex/a-case-primer-for-the-rolex-1675--unpolished-/732.791448.5303788/
This is an interesting article.
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many
·RE: GMT 1675. They are thinner for sure, look how thin that bottom right lug:
Not the exact same model (different crown guards) but you get the idea, this is the unpolished one:
https://www.watchprosite.com/rolex/a-case-primer-for-the-rolex-1675--unpolished-/732.791448.5303788/
This is an interesting article.
Honestly I think the angle of the photos are deceiving so it doesn't immediately look thinner to me. Also I'm not surprised RSC actually makes lugs thinner. My comment was more directed at third party case refinishers.
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boogedyboo
·This thread has been an eye-opening and I have concluded the following:
1) Vintage Rolex watches are a virtual minefield and must be approached with the utmost of scrutiny
2) Modern Rolex watches are impossible to get at RRP (or at least the stainless steel sports models)
Back to my Speedmaster then 😗
1) Vintage Rolex watches are a virtual minefield and must be approached with the utmost of scrutiny
2) Modern Rolex watches are impossible to get at RRP (or at least the stainless steel sports models)
Back to my Speedmaster then 😗
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Joe_A
·I have enjoyed this thread and found it to be educational.
Though I am the type who can appreciate a rustic looking distressed dining table - as compared with a high-gloss finished type one is fearful of sitting at - I do like my watches to look either nearly new - or in the case of fine vintage watches - lightly grazed - with a nearly unblemished dial and hands in good shape. Uniform aging of the lume is attractive as well.
To each his own.
I realize that to some, a watch with a banged up and unpolished case with sharp angles and perhaps with a badly scratched or faded bezel is more desirable than one that looks like a modern reissue, I see great skill and art exhibited in a very fine rehabilitation and restoration process.
Like most here, disclosure of what has or has not been done is of paramount importance.
~ Joe
Though I am the type who can appreciate a rustic looking distressed dining table - as compared with a high-gloss finished type one is fearful of sitting at - I do like my watches to look either nearly new - or in the case of fine vintage watches - lightly grazed - with a nearly unblemished dial and hands in good shape. Uniform aging of the lume is attractive as well.
To each his own.
I realize that to some, a watch with a banged up and unpolished case with sharp angles and perhaps with a badly scratched or faded bezel is more desirable than one that looks like a modern reissue, I see great skill and art exhibited in a very fine rehabilitation and restoration process.
Like most here, disclosure of what has or has not been done is of paramount importance.
~ Joe
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t_swiss_t
·Honestly I think the angle of the photos are deceiving so it doesn't immediately look thinner to me. Also I'm not surprised RSC actually makes lugs thinner. My comment was more directed at third party case refinishers.
Two comments:
1) Depends on the case refinisher, as far as I'm aware LAWW states that they don't do laser welding / add metal to the watches and only refinish what's there. I'm not sure what other places inside or outside of the US.
If anyone knows places that do laser welding, it might be good to have a list so others looking to buy a watch could know/and consider this fact if a seller mentions that it was sold by one of these refinishers. I am not aware of any in the US but haven't really asked about it.
-----
2) Another thing that I don't think has been mentioned explicitly is the variety of case/crown guard shapes seen on what are considered 'rounded' or standard matte dial crown guards. Please see below - the Mark 1 crown guards start beveling very far out from the case (usually lines up with the outer edge of the threads on the crown) and the sides of the crown guards are more vertical whereas the later examples have more and more rounded sided and a bevel that starts much closer to the case. I'm trying to see if there are particular serial ranges that correspond but I don't have enough info to include on my site (gmtmaster1675.com) yet. The second and third pictures are credited from @Autaviano , the first is mine.
Mark 1
Mark 2
Mark 5
- Andrew
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marco
·The vintage Rolex market now is a truly deceitful environment.
I have three Rolex vintage pieces collected over 35 years. I am 100% sure about two of them, the third one was found in Hong Kong by my watchmaker and he could find nothing amiss. They all have commensurate wear and ageing which to me legitimizes the one not at 100%.
Now compare these watches with what is available from the respectable hi-end dealers. There is no comparison, these abominations are almost perfect, lovely lume, stunning dials and hands, cases that have only seen the inside of a safe.
These watches are 50 years old, they were worn to tell the time there was no other way. People did not spend £100 on watch and then not wear it.They were scratched, bashed ,had water ingress. They have been polished many times.
So where is this never ending supply of beautiful vintage Rolex's coming from ?
The GMT has joined the ranks of highly desireable and guess what suddenly there are numerous almost perfect examples available at a price .
I leave you to draw your own conclusions.
I have three Rolex vintage pieces collected over 35 years. I am 100% sure about two of them, the third one was found in Hong Kong by my watchmaker and he could find nothing amiss. They all have commensurate wear and ageing which to me legitimizes the one not at 100%.
Now compare these watches with what is available from the respectable hi-end dealers. There is no comparison, these abominations are almost perfect, lovely lume, stunning dials and hands, cases that have only seen the inside of a safe.
These watches are 50 years old, they were worn to tell the time there was no other way. People did not spend £100 on watch and then not wear it.They were scratched, bashed ,had water ingress. They have been polished many times.
So where is this never ending supply of beautiful vintage Rolex's coming from ?
The GMT has joined the ranks of highly desireable and guess what suddenly there are numerous almost perfect examples available at a price .
I leave you to draw your own conclusions.
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djmusicman
·2) Another thing that I don't think has been mentioned explicitly is the variety of case/crown guard shapes seen on what are considered 'rounded' or standard matte dial crown guards. Please see below - the Mark 1 crown guards start beveling very far out from the case (usually lines up with the outer edge of the threads on the crown) and the sides of the crown guards are more vertical whereas the later examples have more and more rounded sided and a bevel that starts much closer to the case. I'm trying to see if there are particular serial ranges that correspond but I don't have enough info to include on my site (gmtmaster1675.com) yet.
Mark 5
Mark 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 refer to the dial and not the case. The crown guards are all a little different even when looking at unpolished examples. It's surprising how different the bevel on the crown guard can be on watches with the same dial and from the same year.
Here is a mark 5 in good shape sold by Springer. The crown guards are different to the one in your picture.
Compare the crown guards on these two 16750 models, they have the same mark 2 dial.
These two watches show the two extremes. I've seen everything in-between concerning the crown guards: no bevel, light bevel, a more rounded look and a sharp steep bevel like the one in the picture directly above. The facet line can also be closer to the crown (16750 again):
I asked Springer about this and he told me "The lines on the GMTs are all over the place, not unlike the thickness of crown guards on the vintage Submariners. Nothing is 100% the same on these older watches"
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seamasterlux
·vintage is a minefield, and not for the uninitiated. I always appreciate the insight of the collectors and those more knowledgeable. That and patience, patience is key.
I could not agree more and many sellers, presenting themselves as pros, are more than happy to defraud unsuspecting customers. Many vintage watches have been built by adding parts from various watches and sold as original at immense premiums.
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t_swiss_t
·Mark 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 refer to the dial and not the case. The crown guards are all a little different even when looking at unpolished examples. It's surprising how different the bevel on the crown guard can be on watches with the same dial and from the same year.
I asked Springer about this and he told me "The lines on the GMTs are all over the place, not unlike the thickness of crown guards on the vintage Submariners. Nothing is 100% the same on these older watches"
I know that the dials and not cases correspond to different matte Marks. My point is that there is consistency with which the cases evolve over time and it is not random. Yes, there is overlap and no, each is not identical, but there are obvious trends too. You don’t see any late gilts or unpolished 1960's Mark 1 mattes with the rounded crown guards whereas, conversely, late 70's Mark 5-6 looks almost close to the 16750.
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