<walking on eggshells...> - recognizing cosmetically enhanced 1675's?

Lonestar · May 28, 2018

Hi guys,

I'm a Rolex virgin... but I've been eyeing 1675's for a while now, as I'm looking for a reasonably priced ( ie mildly into the 5-digit $ prices as opposed wildly into that range... heck, even the low range is not reasonable at all, when one thinks about it!), nicely patinated regular wearer (not beater).

As I'm slowly doing my homework and learning the ropes, I am confused again and again by some of the cosmetically perfect 1675's from the 70's that are hitting the specialized forums time after time. Then again some questions are tough to ask, especially as a non-native speaker, without making them look like they are accusing some sellers (which they aren't!). So please bear with me here, and let me know in case you feel this has crossed the line, and help me reword this is a totally neutral manner in case it has - thanks in advance for your help 😀

Some well-known sellers seem to have a regular supply of perfect beige/brown-patina-indices-dials, with matching hands, and inserts that look vintage and patinated although not "worn out" - month after month. This is statistically baffling to me... I have shared some of my concerns with some other real-life (meaning: that I know personnally as opposed to just "behind a keyboard") watch enthusiasts. They have mentionned that I should be extremely cautious about "perfect looking" GMT's (same for Subs, but they aren't my thing... yet!). Then there is also the odd mention on reputable watch blogs about artificially patinated 1675's, and Italy is often pointed at, for instance. This all makes me feel very, very nervous, as I am worried there is a lot more knowledge in the community about cosmetically-enhanced aged-to-perfection watches, than is really shared.

Can someone care to educate me about the tell-tale signs of watches to stay away from? I am not talking about service dials, non-period-matching components or frankens, or chamfers that have been polished like heck, but more about artistically processed timepieces that actually look much better than they really should...

Thank you in advance for your kind help,

Paul

TTG · May 28, 2018

I thought no one was noticing this. LOL
Great perception.
I have warned buyers of known indicators that depict these inconsistencies but at the end they buy the watch, as they were looking for someone to tell them to buy.
I have also seen some of these watches at near perfection.
However, educating the not so experienced is two fold, educating the want a buy and those who are creating them..
Be careful out there...

watchknut · May 28, 2018

Great thread...it amazes me that so many perfect gilt GMTs are out there...I mean mirror gloss with perfect, deep bevels!

For what it is worth, here some interesting observations from my experience.

LAWW can match hands using period tritium and radium so that matches a Geiger reading and UV light. They only do hands and do not touch dials. If they can do it, then you know others can as well.

I found a watchmaker in Italy that can remove flawed lacquer from a gilt dial and reapply...he can also relume with period tritium and radium. There are more of him out there...

I found a guy that can make a 1:1 Rolex midcase and will put a serial and reference numbers with a pantograph machine. They accept gen parts. There are many of them out there...

I am not saying that any dealers are doing anything shady, but the number of killer watches hitting the market seems to outstrip the mediocre ones that were once prevalent.

JohnSteed · May 28, 2018

Shivermetimbers!!

watchknut
Great thread...it amazes me that so many perfect gilt GMTs are out there...I mean mirror gloss with perfect, deep bevels!

For what it is worth, here some interesting observations from my experience.

LAWW can match hands using period tritium and radium so that matches a Geiger reading and UV light. They only do hands and do not touch dials. If they can do it, then you know others can as well.

I found a watchmaker in Italy that can remove flawed lacquer from a gilt dial and reapply...he can also relume with period tritium and radium. There are more of him out there...

I found a guy that can make a 1:1 Rolex midcase and will put a serial and reference numbers with a pantograph machine. They accept gen parts. There are many of them out there...

I am not saying that any dealers are doing anything shady, but the number of killer watches hitting the market seems to outstrip the mediocre ones that were once prevalent.

Thanks

kov · May 28, 2018

watchknut
I found a watchmaker in Italy that can remove flawed lacquer from a gilt dial and reapply...he can also relume with period tritium and radium. There are more of him out there...

I found a guy that can make a 1:1 Rolex midcase and will put a serial and reference numbers with a pantograph machine. They accept gen parts. There are many of them out there...

This is scary ! 😒

watchknut · May 28, 2018

kov
This is scary ! 😒

Yep, it sure is.

For about $2,500 I can take my flawed 1675 gilt and turn it into an unpolished with some wear, mirror gloss gilt GMT.

Visit the homage forums...and also see who the big dealers follow on IG. It's eye opening.

For example, my 1675 gilt case is 98%+, but lost its bevels. I could have LAWW recut and lap for $500, and then throw the case in a Tupperware container with gravel, sand and some nails...shake about, and voila...unpolished, with years of patina and look at those bevels.

djmusicman · May 28, 2018

Well, does it look better before or after?

rolex laboratorio di orologeria portanova before 3.jpg

rolex laboratorio di orologeria portanova after 2.jpg

For me the crime was the terrible polish job in the 1st photo. The second photo shows the watch polished to the original factory specifications. These guys were much more respectful to the original watch design than the guys who just pushed the case against a polishing wheel.

Regarding the lume, mismatching or hands with cracked lume can ruin the look of a vintage watch. Here the hands are luminova replacedments:

Here they have been colour matched to the dial:

I know which I prefer!

ATWG · May 28, 2018

I have also noticed this trend, every watch that's hitting the market has near perfect patina on dial / hands. It's some what interesting how these watches are appearing out of nowhere given the strong market conditions.

All you need to look at is eBay, at any given moment there are dozens of "fake" or altered GMT/Sub dials that look near perfect. And frankly, I can't tell the difference other than by the sellers own item description.

Lastly, if you have read the book 'Blink', this is where your intuition kicks in, your gut instinct. If it looks too good to be true, then it is. I have had numerous folks inquire about certain pieces, I have thus far resisted in providing an opinion just b/c I can't substantiate it, other than that little voice inside telling me 'staaaay awaaaay, waaaaalk away'

Glad there are other folks on this forum with their common sense instinct, great thread.

ATWG · May 28, 2018

As long as the seller discloses, thus price is commensurate to condition, I have no issues, just be upfront and truthful.

The case, well, that's more obvious.....you'd have to be blind not to see what's what....

djmusicman
Well, does it look better before or after?

For me the crime was the terrible polish job in the 1st photo. The second photo shows the watch polished to the original factory specifications. These guys were much more respectful to the original watch design than the guys who just pushed the case against a polishing wheel.

Regarding the lume, mismatching or hands with cracked lume can ruin the look of a vintage watch. Here the hands are luminova replacedments:

Here they have been colour matched to the dial:

I know which I prefer!

watchknut · May 28, 2018

ATWG
As long as the seller discloses, thus price is commensurate to condition, I have no issues, just be upfront and truthful.

The case, well, that's more obvious.....you'd have to be blind not to see what's what....

Ditto, and a recut and relume to color match hands make a watch 10x more attractive and wearable...as long as disclosed.

djmusicman · May 28, 2018

@ATWG

Unpolished or refinished?

watchknut · May 28, 2018

djmusicman
@ATWG

Unpolished or refinished?

Need to see angled lug shots, case back shot, and bezel overhang on non crown side. My 1675 long E looks similar...lost most of its bevels, but is unpolished.

ATWG · May 28, 2018

Not going to play that game, if it's not acquired from the original owner with known history, no one can make such proclamations. In some forums, that word is banned, and for good reason. Additionally, cases can be spot welded as well to look meaty. No thanks.....

watchknut · May 28, 2018

watchknut
Need to see angled lug shots, case back shot, and bezel overhang on non crown side. My 1675 long E looks similar...lost most of its bevels, but is unpolished.

Well, actually my case has been polished! To @AWTG point, the term is such a slippery slope.

Archer · May 28, 2018

I agree that the regularity with which perfectly matching patina comes up is a little more than suspect.

ATWG
Not going to play that game, if it's not acquired from the original owner with known history, no one can make such proclamations. In some forums, that word is banned, and for good reason. Additionally, cases can be spot welded as well to look meaty. No thanks.....

Yep - they can be laser welded, polished, then tumbled to give that "unpolished" look, so in my world that word is pretty much meaningless.

And although it's not a GMT, I'm pleased I bought my 1680 from the original owner - it's the only way to know if the watch hasn't been played with IMO...

ATWG · May 28, 2018

Here is my '68 Speedmaster, purchased from original owner whose father purchased it for him back in '69 as he was going to flight school to enlist in the Air Force and fly off to Vietnam. The story is about a 18 year old young man, wanting to serve his country.

This is an unaltered watch, so where is the patina? The watch sat in a drawer for 40 some odd years. Yea, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, it's not always about what hue of orange is on that dial, it's about it's purpose and the story it has to tell. Unfortunately, this hobby has become more of a "show and tell" side show lately where everyone is trying to one-up the other by the extravagance of the colors.

djmusicman · May 28, 2018

The GMT was unpolished. But my point was that the bad polish jobs should be criticized not the good ones. The bad polish hurt the originality of the watch. In my opinion, the watchmaker who spends hours painstakingly restoring your case to bring your watch back to life should be praised.

@ATWG wow nice story and a stunning watch. If you ever get bored at the lack of patina drop me a DM!

77deluxe · May 28, 2018

Great thread. I know this is anecdotal as it is simply based on what I have owned and what I currently own, but I have never owned a watch where the lume on the hands developed the exact same patina as the lume on the dial. Mine have always had a slight but observable difference. I'm not saying matching patina can't or doesn't happen, I just think it's rare. Much rarer than all of the perfect examples I see for sale.

sevenhelmet · May 28, 2018

ATWG
Here is my '68 Speedmaster...

Wow. That is a thing of beauty, and your story makes it even more so. Great share! 😎

Darlinboy · May 28, 2018

This isn’t new... been going on for many years in the high-end Rolex market. Price appreciation and market demand will continue to drive “improvements” in restoration technology, and increase the temptation for shady sellers to profit at the buyer’s expense.

As always, do your research and be careful out there.

<walking on eggshells...> - recognizing cosmetically enhanced 1675's?

Lonestar

TTG

watchknut

JohnSteed

kov

watchknut

djmusicman

ATWG

ATWG

watchknut

djmusicman

watchknut

ATWG

watchknut

Archer

ATWG

djmusicman

77deluxe

sevenhelmet

Darlinboy

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