Victim of fraudulent eBay buyer - need advice

Posts
188
Likes
267
Thanks for posting your issue with an eBay sale, I sell regularly on eBay, so this really opens my eyes to possible risks.

I always knew Ebay is on favor of the buyer not the seller, but yikes! This is just robbery! Pl ase keep updating this post as you get new info

So soooorrrrrryyyy to hear you are going through this !

Best regards,
 
Posts
375
Likes
431
Hi everyone,

Allow me to apologize for resurrecting this thread, however I thought it might be of interest for you to know how, after nearly a year, this issue has (not) worked out.

Before I begin, the past year+ brought a whirlwind of both professional and personal goings on which, paired with my negative horological experience, soured me on the hobby for a time. With Baselworld 2018 in full swing, I have been pulled back in and hope to continue contributing to OF, which I see is vibrant as ever.

Following my last post, I was able to speak with a US based PayPal representative, who told me that under no circumstances would PayPal reimburse, forgive, or compromise regarding the negative balance they had placed on my account. Seeing how I had already withdrawn the money, there was no way I was going to put it back. As a result, my PayPal account has been locked and I will no longer be using their services.

A collection agency sent me a letter detailing the amount PayPal alleges I owe them. I responded with a form letter disputing the collection and requesting "proof of debt." They sent me something back that loosely resembled an invoice, and I have not heard from them since. My credit score remains unaffected for now.

In sum, I still have the money I was paid for the watch, but only because I was able to withdraw the full amount in an expedient manner following the sale. I will certainly never use PayPal again, and will likely insist on only face to face transactions in the future. Sadly, this significantly blunts the thrill of the hunt and makes it difficult for me to purchase a watch knowing I have limited options to sell later on.

Once bitten, twice shy.
 
Posts
1,589
Likes
5,747
I am so sorry this has soured your 'watch owning' experience, 'pro tem'

There really are some complete 'shits' out there...both as Buyers & Sellers

I hope your confidence returns soon, in the rest of us

How long ago, did you have contact with Paypal ?
 
Posts
1,129
Likes
5,965
Glad your back into the fold. I had a similar experience end of last year.
Sold a Tissot for £300 to a guy in Poland. Sent Royal Mail international recorded.
Had to email him after a week as the delivery report kept saying unable to deliver which was odd.
He replied to my email saying he was going to collect it next day from depot.
Next thing I had a significantly not as described dispute from eBay raised.
Package had been sliced open and filled with crap but emptied of the watch as the weight had changed from 1.1kg to 600grams.
So I lost the watch and money using a tracked service. It was insured up to £250 so I got most back but that scum bag got the watch and his money back.
Haven’t sold anything since and anything over £500 I would only sell via a dealer but your minus their commission so the hobby becomes a little more expensive.
As everyone has said previously the rules are Trust, Trust and trust again when dealing with people.
I hope it never happens to you again, keep fighting with PayPal they will go away eventually and all your evidence would hold up well in court if it came to it.
 
Posts
305
Likes
293
Good to hear from you again. Maybe you did not hear but eBay is moving away from Paypal and will start using a new payment system. Paypal has fundamental problems in the core, maybe that is why eBay is moving away.
 
Posts
90
Likes
199
I guess it could be worse.. being able to keep what's rightfully yours is a plus. Very disappointed in how Paypal handled your situation though.
 
Posts
913
Likes
1,596
Hey, if it doesn’t affect your credit score, then f*ck em and don’t look back. As far as I know, paypal doesn’t report to credit bureaus. At least I had read that their credit cards didn’t, and judging by your experience it seems that they don’t.... I’ll never understand how people can be so shitty.
 
Posts
8,711
Likes
14,617
Hey, if it doesn’t affect your credit score, then f*ck em and don’t look back. As far as I know, paypal doesn’t report to credit bureaus. At least I had read that their credit cards didn’t, and judging by your experience it seems that they don’t.... I’ll never understand how people can be so shitty.
I would be preemptive and submit all the details to the credit bureaus, on the off chance PayPal does try to report. Or, at the very least, have it ready to send, if they report.
 
Posts
2,808
Likes
8,339
Hi everyone,

Allow me to apologize for resurrecting this thread, however I thought it might be of interest for you to know how, after nearly a year, this issue has (not) worked out.

Before I begin, the past year+ brought a whirlwind of both professional and personal goings on which, paired with my negative horological experience, soured me on the hobby for a time. With Baselworld 2018 in full swing, I have been pulled back in and hope to continue contributing to OF, which I see is vibrant as ever.

Following my last post, I was able to speak with a US based PayPal representative, who told me that under no circumstances would PayPal reimburse, forgive, or compromise regarding the negative balance they had placed on my account. Seeing how I had already withdrawn the money, there was no way I was going to put it back. As a result, my PayPal account has been locked and I will no longer be using their services.

A collection agency sent me a letter detailing the amount PayPal alleges I owe them. I responded with a form letter disputing the collection and requesting "proof of debt." They sent me something back that loosely resembled an invoice, and I have not heard from them since. My credit score remains unaffected for now.

In sum, I still have the money I was paid for the watch, but only because I was able to withdraw the full amount in an expedient manner following the sale. I will certainly never use PayPal again, and will likely insist on only face to face transactions in the future. Sadly, this significantly blunts the thrill of the hunt and makes it difficult for me to purchase a watch knowing I have limited options to sell later on.

Once bitten, twice shy.

Sorry this happened to you. I suppose since you received the money due to their accidentally releasing the funds way back then, you can't even file criminal charges for mail fraud against the buyer. The primary outcome of the buyer's actions is that he has stolen your ability to use PayPal, and has hung a constant threat to your credit score (or collections from PayPal) over your head.

You could have at least taken a vacation during the school summer break and left a burning paper sack filled with dog poop on their doorstep.

When I sold my Silver Snoopy Award recently, the value was so high that I had to pick a buyer whom I trusted and who trusted me enough to wire a five-figure number to my bank account, rather than sell for a higher price and have to deal with PayPal and the risk associated. I took about a 15% hit on the sale price, but I didn't have to go through this same nightmare.

Are there any escrow services out there anymore, where they could collect the money and the item, and forward the money and item to the appropriate party? I wonder why eBay hasn't started their own escrow service?
 
Posts
256
Likes
293
I’ve just read through all of this mess. Like the OP, the lesson I take is to be sure of my purchases, as selling is just as, if not even more, risky than buying. I believe I will limit my PayPal transactions to $20.00 items from now on.
 
Posts
53
Likes
34
This is pretty disheartening. I used to sell a lot of electronics on ebay and had the same thing done to me multiple times, however, unlike OP I lost both my items and money. Its pretty ridiculous to hear that in 7-10 years time, nothing has changed.

However, I've brought a few claims in small claims court and have had great experiences. Most people dont realize how easy it is to file cases in small claims court. You can look up the jurisdiction requirements but it is not always necessary to file in the buyer's home state, although eventually if you get a default judgment you'll have to pay buyer's home state a visit to collect.
 
Posts
255
Likes
441
We were having a discussion about PayPal here
https://omegaforums.net/threads/new...selling-watches-here.72782/page-2#post-920988

Of course some sided with Ebay policy and PayPal others did not..This is what I have been saying for a long time.No way unless you absolutely trust someone should you sell an expensive item unless you are ready to face the consequences of loosing your money and item.Too many scams out there and PayPal is a playground for scam buyers.As a buyer your safe but try and sell eventually that expensive item will go poof!
Sorry about your loss
 
Posts
343
Likes
420
This is company policy. No company policy is above the law. NO money no item in OP case is wrong an illegal.
There's no law compelling PayPal to offer any kind of protection. If their fine print says there's no protection, it's your choice as to whether or not to enter into any contract with them. If there's a dispute about what the fine print means, that's a civil dispute and not an issue of violating criminal laws. (Anticipating your response: No, that doesn't mean that PP can hide anything patently illegal in fine print; but neither spelling out that they have no obligation to reimburse you for bank chargebacks nor spelling out that they're the final arbiters of any disputes is illegal.)

Paypal or any other company that tells you our policy no money & no item, that is wrong and illegal. No company can hide under its own terms & conditions to bypass the law. File a small claim on a minimum.
Same issue, but Small Claims Court is the right approach for your civil claim against the buyer.

Yes Paypal in your state. Because Paypal is putting you in this position not the buyer. Buyer just following basic dispute procedure that was giving to him by his Credit card company. The terms of dispute that Paypal gave you are illegal.
Totally disagree. The buyer engaged in fraud. If PayPal hasn't violated the terms of their agreement, there's no case vs. PayPal. Further, they have attorneys to fight for them and very deep pockets that make litigation less of a problem for them than for the buyer. Sue the buyer first, not PP. You can always try to pursue PP later if you choose to and if there's any legitimate basis to hold them responsible (I mean legally, not morally).

It seems to me that this little toe rag probably still lives with his parents as he lives in a nice area. How about contacting mum or dad to bring it to their attention.
You never know they are still some decent people out there. Good luck
You may have some luck doing this, especially if he used their card. Explain to them exactly what he did and that, at a minimum, he should have just returned your watch. Explain that you have every right to post all the details publicly (because it's true) and that their son's name will forever be linked to this fraudulent transaction anytime prospective employers Google him. Tell them you just want your money back or your watch back. He can't keep both.

I would still recommend getting the US Postal Inspectors involved. Assuming you are in the US, let your buyer know that if the watch is not received back by a certain date, you will open a case. If the buyer is not in the US and you are, it may give you some leverage with the credit card people and/or PayPal. Good luck, gatorcpa

Edit - I'm not sure that state courts (like small claims) would have jurisdiction here, as once the USPS is involved it becomes a federal matter, especially if your buyer is in a different state than you.
The only fraud occurred after delivery; so I don't think it has anything to do with USPS at all. I don't think it's a USPS matter if the fraud occurred 3 weeks after delivery just because USPS delivered the item. Local cops will just tell you that it's a civil matter. They "could" pursue it as criminal fraud if they want to; but unless you happen to know someone on the PD there, they probably won't bother and will just give you the "it's a civil matter" response. It sounds like Foo2rama might have some experience or connections in that regard; so I'd take him up on his offer to PM him.

Regarding your edit, you're confusing civil and criminal matters. He could pursue it civilly through local Small Claims Court and still refer it to criminal authorities separately, whether locally or federally, if there was a basis for federal jurisdiction. The two have nothing to do with one another and there's no such thing as a federal small claim; so your only realistic civil action is going to be Small Claims Court in his city or town.

On the bright side I withdrew the money to my bank account so PayPal is simply showing a negative balance. I am content to let it remain there. If I end up never using PayPal again, so be it.
I don't think that's going to work. PP can probably just take (or get) the money back from you one way or another because you agreed to their TOS, which includes their right to decide disputes.

If talking to his parents doesn't do you any good, just go the small-claims route in his city. He already admitted to receiving the item and you can prove everything else. Ordinarily, your travel and lodging costs aren't recoupable when you sue someone (absent a prior agreement to that effect); but the judge always has the latitude to award punitive damages whenever he feels they're warranted. Deliberate, outrageous fraud that requires the seller to fly to a local court to sue would be exactly the type of thing to which punitive damages could apply. Just let the judge know that there was no legitimate dispute; that the buyer never filed an eBay dispute; and that he simply tried to keep your watch and your money with no legitimate basis for any dispute, simply because he thought he was far enough away that you couldn't do anything about it. Ask the judge to explain to the buyer that you have every right to post the story publicly (including the docket # and outcome of the case) to warn other potential victims about what he did to you and that it would probably be in the buyer's interest to reimburse you for your expenses if he ever wants to find a job.
Edited:
 
Posts
2,808
Likes
8,339
There's no law compelling PayPal to offer any kind of protection. If their fine print says there's no protection, it's your choice as to whether or not to enter into any contract with them. If there's a dispute about what the fine print means, that's a civil dispute and not an issue of violating criminal laws. (Anticipating your response: No, that doesn't mean that PP can hide anything patently illegal in fine print; but neither spelling out that they have no obligation to reimburse you for bank chargebacks nor spelling out that they're the final arbiters of any disputes is illegal.)

Same issue, but Small Claims Court is the right approach for your civil claim against the buyer.

Totally disagree. The buyer engaged in fraud. If PayPal hasn't violated the terms of their agreement, there's no case vs. PayPal. Further, they have attorneys to fight for them and very deep pockets that make litigation less of a problem for them than for the buyer. Sue the buyer first, not PP. You can always try to pursue PP later if you choose to and if there's any legitimate basis to hold them responsible (I mean legally, not morally).

You may have some luck doing this, especially if he used their card. Explain to them exactly what he did and that, at a minimum, he should have just returned your watch. Explain that you have every right to post all the details publicly (because it's true) and that their son's name will forever be linked to this fraudulent transaction anytime prospective employers Google him. Tell them you just want your money back or your watch back. He can't keep both.

The only fraud occurred after delivery; so I don't think it has anything to do with USPS at all. I don't think it's a USPS matter if the fraud occurred 3 weeks after delivery just because USPS delivered the item. Local cops will just tell you that it's a civil matter. They "could" pursue it as criminal fraud if they want to; but unless you happen to know someone on the PD there, they probably won't bother and will just give you the "it's a civil matter" response. It sounds like Foo2rama might have some experience or connections in that regard; so I'd take him up on his offer to PM him.

Regarding your edit, you're confusing civil and criminal matters. He could pursue it civilly through local Small Claims Court and still refer it to criminal authorities separately, whether locally or federally, if there was a basis for federal jurisdiction. The two have nothing to do with one another and there's no such thing as a federal small claim; so your only realistic civil action is going to be Small Claims Court in his city or town.

I don't think that's going to work. PP can probably just take (or get) the money back from you one way or another because you agreed to their TOS, which includes their right to decide disputes.

If talking to his parents doesn't do you any good, just go the small-claims route in his city. He already admitted to receiving the item and you can prove everything else. Ordinarily, your travel and lodging costs aren't recoupable when you sue someone (absent a prior agreement to that effect); but the judge always has the latitude to award punitive damages whenever he feels they're warranted. Deliberate, outrageous fraud that requires the seller to fly to a local court to sue would be exactly the type of thing to which punitive damages could apply. Just let the judge know that there was no legitimate dispute; that the buyer never filed an eBay dispute; and that he simply tried to keep your watch and your money with no legitimate basis for any dispute, simply because he thought he was far enough away that you couldn't do anything about it. Ask the judge to explain to the buyer that you have every right to post the story publicly (including the docket # and outcome of the case) to warn other potential victims about what he did to you and that it would probably be in the buyer's interest to reimburse you for your expenses if he ever wants to find a job.

The court may say that he has no status in the claim since PayPal paid back the seller, but in fact the seller now "owes" a debt to PayPal and his account is frozen. So, be sure the court knows that the plan is to make sure that both the Seller and PayPal are made whole, by giving any court award to PayPal, to settle any PayPal debt that was due because of the buyer's actions.
 
Posts
343
Likes
420
The court may say that he has no status in the claim since PayPal paid back the seller, but in fact the seller now "owes" a debt to PayPal and his account is frozen. So, be sure the court knows that the plan is to make sure that both the Seller and PayPal are made whole, by giving any court award to PayPal, to settle any PayPal debt that was due because of the buyer's actions.
You're thinking of standing and it doesn't work that way (basically, for the reason in the rest of your response). PayPal never reimbursed him; he just withdrew the money to prevent them from taking it back. More importantly, PayPal hasn't forgiven the debt and, in fact, has specifically demanded it from him. As long as PayPal still considers it an outstanding debt, he can (and should) sue the buyer.

...However, I've brought a few claims in small claims court and have had great experiences. Most people dont realize how easy it is to file cases in small claims court. You can look up the jurisdiction requirements but it is not always necessary to file in the buyer's home state, although eventually if you get a default judgment you'll have to pay buyer's home state a visit to collect.
Exactly, except for the part about when you'll have to go to the other state. You can file the case online in some states (and by mail) and, usually, you can also collect a judgment remotely, such as through the Sheriff's office here in NYC. The only thing you'll definitely have to make the trip for will be the actual trial (or inquest if he doesn't show up).
 
Posts
352
Likes
1,371
Interestingly, blockchain technologies such as Ethereum are working on solving this sort of problem with “smart contracts.”
 
Posts
2,808
Likes
8,339
You're thinking of standing and it doesn't work that way (basically, for the reason in the rest of your response). PayPal never reimbursed him; he just withdrew the money to prevent them from taking it back. More importantly, PayPal hasn't forgiven the debt and, in fact, has specifically demanded it from him. As long as PayPal still considers it an outstanding debt, he can (and should) sue the buyer...

Standing, not status, right. On the other point, if I recall correctly, he said that PayPal took the money, then gave it back, then they tried to take it again but he'd already moved the funds thanks to his buddies at OF recommending to take the money and run...
 
Posts
375
Likes
431
Standing, not status, right. On the other point, if I recall correctly, he said that PayPal took the money, then gave it back, then they tried to take it again but he'd already moved the funds thanks to his buddies at OF recommending to take the money and run...
That's basically what happened. I am thankful I was able to find a PayPal rep willing to release the funds while the chargeback process took place (up to 75 days).

I did consult a lawyer while all this was going on. He said there is little to no value in filing small claims against the buyer. It is likely I would go to the trouble of traveling across the country only for the other party to appear at the hearing and request it be postponed. I forget the legal term for this, but I was told it would almost assuredly be granted.

Second, despite any of PayPal's fine print, they are not able to use ambiguity or omissions in the contract to their advantage. My strongest point for bringing small claims against PayPal (instead of the buyer) is that PayPal was in fact the merchant in the transaction, and the chargeback was filed by the buyer's bank against PayPal's account. There is no clause in PayPal's TOS that states sellers are responsible for insuring PayPal against buyer fraud, and therefore I am not culpable since the buyer did not use either eBay or PayPal dispute processes (breaching his own contract with PayPal).

I did not get to test this argument in court, but my "legal team" felt it would stand a good chance in my specific case.
 
Posts
343
Likes
420
Depending on how far away you are and what the cost would be to appear in court once, it might still be worth the trip. A shitbag kid is much more likely to just fail to appear than to appear in person to request an adjournment. You can also probably file a short brief by mail once you're on the court calendar (I've done that in NYC) along with a very short cover letter alerting the judge to the simple fact that the defendant has no defense whatsoever on the merits and opposing any motion for adjournment in advance. Small claims courts are much more flexible about procedure, so if you can communicate something like the following to the judge in a couple of sentences, the judge could choose to be very helpful unless the small claims process in that jurisdiction expressly provides a right to adjournment as opposed to just granting them "ordinarily":

"The defendant, residing in state , purchased a watch from me, in state , online for $4,500. After receiving the watch, he simply cancelled his payment without cause or any justification and still refuses to return the watch. If the defendant attempts to abuse the process against an out-of-state plaintiff by requesting an adjournment, the plaintiff respectfully requests that the Court require the defendant to proffer any defense on the merits before granting the adjournment"

The lawyer you spoke to could provide a very short brief for you to sign and mail. It's unusual to submit briefs for small claims, but there's probably nothing prohibiting it. When I did that in NYC, the judge read it and issued a very detailed written decision responding to every point raised in the brief, treating it exactly the same as a brief in a higher court. Basically, judges are also human and they have a desire to seek justice. If you can clue him in to what's going on, he might very well question the defendant briefly before simply allowing an adjournment. You can also call the court clerk to ask about whether that's possible.
 
Posts
53
Likes
34
"The defendant, residing in state , purchased a watch from me, in state , online for $4,500. After receiving the watch, he simply cancelled his payment without cause or any justification and still refuses to return the watch. If the defendant attempts to abuse the process against an out-of-state plaintiff by requesting an adjournment, the plaintiff respectfully requests that the Court require the defendant to proffer any defense on the merits before granting the adjournment"

This is great advice, you really have nothing to lose by going the small claims court route. At the moment, the kid probably thinks he is able to just ignore you because he is in a different state and no one is willing to pursue him for this amount of money. The filing and notice that he receive from the court will probably be the only wake up call he needs to make this right.

Separately, if he did this to you I would bet he has done this to others as well. It might be tough but you may be able to contact ebay or just look into his ebay history to see if you can find others he did this to and further strengthen your case.