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Victim of fraudulent eBay buyer - need advice

  1. cimo Feb 28, 2017

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    Hi everyone,

    I apologize for the melodramatic thread title, but I am in a bit of a pickle and am hoping to get some advice from you all. In truth, I'm not sure where the best place for this thread is, but I spend more time on this forum than any other so here it is.

    I have previously bought and sold a number of watches on various websites and forums without any issues. Then, one month ago, I sold a watch on eBay. The buyer paid, and I shipped the watch USPS with signature confirmation and insurance. Fast forward three weeks to today, and I receive an email from PayPal saying that the buyer has issued a credit card chargeback. At no point did the buyer send me any messages, indicate there was a problem, or request a return or open a dispute on eBay.

    I called PayPal, who have already deducted the funds from my account even though the chargeback has not been finalized. They told me to provide them with all the documents and details I could. I explained the situation, sent them screenshots of my eBay listing, the photos from the listing, USPS proof of delivery, and photos from my packing process to demonstrate that it was securely shipped. PayPal assured me that they would argue on my behalf, but that ultimately the decision was up to the buyer's credit card company. When I asked if they would reimburse me if the chargeback is found in the buyer's favor, they said no because it was filed as an "item not described" claim. Even though their website specifically states (and I quote) "we'll cover your losses, even if you lose the chargeback."

    I then called eBay, who was no help at all. Because the buyer circumvented both the eBay dispute and the PayPal dispute processes, ebay did not even know the buyer had initiated a chargeback. They too said they would not reimburse me if the chargeback did not go my way. I pointed out that the buyer had made no contact with me, and had neglected to respond to any messages I sent through eBay.

    So, other than hoping that HIS credit card votes in MY favor, what are my options? Am I looking at losing the watch AND $1600 US?

    I'm sorry for the rant, but this has really left me feeling rather negative to the whole experience. I appreciate any input from the more experienced users here. Thanks for listening,

    cimo
     
  2. JimInOz Melbourne Australia Feb 28, 2017

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    I can't help with your problem, but I'd suggest that you post some pics of your watch or at least your eBay listing so that we can keep an eye out in case the f*cker tries to on sell it.
     
  3. CanberraOmega Rabbitohs and Whisky Supporter Feb 28, 2017

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    Have you directly contacted his credit card company?
     
  4. Moppel Feb 28, 2017

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    I would first try to contact the buyer by phone to clarify. If this does not help I'd proably complain to the police.

    Good luck.
    Thomas
     
  5. ffej4 Survey Man Feb 28, 2017

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    I'm really very sorry to hear this, man. In terms of PayPal chargebacks (which is really PayPal's ultimate downfall, IMO), the seller has very little control. I've read that your first response to the chargeback should include as much information as possible – screenshots of delivery confirmation, photos of a tracking label, a tracking number, pictures of the packing process, even a video of you handing the parcel over to the shipping courier.

    The buyer can fund a transaction through PayPal with a credit card, meaning that the funds are directly linked to his bank. On top of that, it's not his money, it's not PayPal's money, it's the bank's money. Ultimately, if a loyal customer tells his bank there was a fraudulent purchase on his credit card, they will attempt to reverse the charge. PayPal doesn't really intervene because they have very little say over whether or not a bank chooses to reverse a charge.

    It's really horrible, and I'm sorry. ALWAYS require a bank wire if you're unsure of a buyer's credibility, and ALWAYS crosscheck the buyer's identity if selling on eBay. Ask the buyer to respond to a PM on Omega Forums or WUS (if they have an established account) to confirm their credibility on another platform. This alone would give you more backup in responding to a chargeback, as you'd have identity confirmation from two separate accounts, meaning that it's unlikely a hacker broke into the buyer's eBay and OF account just to fool you into selling him a watch. If thy don't have an established forum account, look into their feedback and request a recommendation from vendors the eBayer has purchased from in the past.

    I'm really very sorry for the situation. Provide as much information to PayPal as possible, and if there's any way for you to get in touch with his credit card company, I'd do so immediately. Chances are, however, that the information is not available to you, as PayPal would likely not disclose the source of the funds. If you can find that out though, it may be your best bet.

    Best of luck to you, friend.
     
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  6. cimo Feb 28, 2017

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    @JimInOz Thank you, good idea. it is the same watch I posted in this forum thread a few months ago https://omegaforums.net/threads/tag-heuer-carrera-cv2111-0-price-drop.49645/#post-629967

    @CanberraOmega PayPal told me that they communicate with the credit card company on my behalf. Because I do not have a merchant account with the financial institution and did not process the payment myself, I do not have the ability argue for myself. It is up to a PayPal "chargeback specialist"

    @Moppel Good idea, I will try to request his phone number from eBay. I think there is a function for this. Unfortunately it was not provided during the normal sales process.

    @ffej4 Thank you that is very helpful. Good information though it looks like I may yet be up the creek. Will just have to wait for the results of the chargeback decision.
     
  7. WatchVaultNYC Feb 28, 2017

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    I can help you, as I have had this exact same experience.

    The most important thing here is to talk to the buyer DIRECTLY to get your watch back, and promise a refund. If the credit card company decides in favor of the buyer, the buyer is not compelled to return the watch to you prior to refund. I repeat, the buyer is NOT compelled by the cc company to return the watch before refund. Meaning it is entirely possible that you lose both watch AND money. And Paypal will tell you, sucks to be you.

    Paypal protection does not protect you from "not as described" cases. You are ONLY protected for "not authorized" or "not delivered".

    I have had this same issue - buyer claimed that I was responsible for servicing the used watch sold to him months later. Filed "not as described" and then a credit card chargeback. Lost both watch and money. This is theft plain and simple. The cops wont help you either, they have bigger things to worry about. Debt collectors will. If I don't get my money or watch back, I can at least ruin his credit history.
     
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  8. ffej4 Survey Man Feb 28, 2017

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    @cimo Another recommendation: keep calling PayPal. Get a hold of different specialists until you find someone who is really willing to help. I found myself in a sticky situation a few months back with a seller from India. After talking to enough people, I finally found a guy who was willing to try and help find a resolution to the issue. If you had no success this evening, try again tomorrow and the day after that.
     
  9. ffej4 Survey Man Feb 28, 2017

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    @WatchVaultNYC Has this pushed you toward bank transfers? Or is there some sort of insurance you can take out when selling? I know you have a large eBay store. I would be terrified to regularly sell expenses watches on eBay. You're brave, sir.
     
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  10. WatchVaultNYC Feb 28, 2017

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    In order to reach more buyers, I can't drop credit cards. You lose so many people if you insist on bank transfers or wire. I have instead offered discounts if payment is made via bank transfer-like methods like Chase Quickpay but takers are low. I am also exploring Paypal-like methods like Venmo that have bank transfer technology underneath, but currently they don't allow commercial payments.

    I agree that this approach is not for everyone, but if you're aggressively trying to grow, you need to take more risks than say casual or occasional sellers.
     
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  11. Foo2rama Keeps his worms in a ball instead of a can. Feb 28, 2017

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    Tell him your theatening to file a police report. Then file one. If you need help PM me.
     
  12. cimo Feb 28, 2017

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    @WatchVaultNYC Thank you, I am sorry you were subjected to the same experience. I am pretty easy going but this really got under my skin. I requested the contact information for the buyer from eBay. Ironically, when they sent me his phone number, they also revealed the date he created his account, which was three days before he made the purchase. In the future, I will use the information request feature to screen buyers before I ever ship an item. In the mean time, I have emailed him directly at his university email address (college kid, found his Facebook too). Tomorrow if I do not get a response I will call on the phone. If possible, I will not hesitate to send it to collections if this goes south.

    @ffej4 In the past two days I have called PayPal and eBay twice each and spoken to a total of four reps. They were all understanding but none offered any possible recourse for the situation. I will continue to try.

    Edit: I think the account registration date eBay sent me is inaccurate. It also says my account was created the same day, when in fact my account is over 10 years old. Strange.
     
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  13. cimo Feb 28, 2017

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    @Foo2rama If necessary, I am prepared to file an internet fraud claim at ic3.org as well as contact whatever local law enforcement I can. I believe @WatchVaultNYC is right in that the police might not be willing to investigate, but I it can't hurt.

    Shame because I just got a new watch in today that I had been looking forward to for some time. This rained on my parade big time.
     
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  14. Foo2rama Keeps his worms in a ball instead of a can. Feb 28, 2017

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    Ic3 will not help you. Local PD generally will not be receptive. Depending on what they say there are ways to force the issue.

    When you initiate contact be nice and say you have a problem with someone in their area. They will pass you to a detective depending on what he says is your next step. Generally they will ask for an appearance bond. Sometimes not. Get the detectives name and then I can assist from their if they will not assist.
     
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  15. ffej4 Survey Man Feb 28, 2017

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    @cimo If you have his number, university email, and shipping address, you have a lot of info. I think it would be worth calling the local police to file a report if you cannot get a response from him. If this chargeback goes through in his favor he essentially just cyber-robbed you of a $1,600 watch. Sure, it's physically different than getting mugged in an ally, but in the end, it is a very similar act of deviance.

    Does he live in a dorm? Has the package been delivered? An option could be to call the front desk of the dorm and ask the admin if she/he will hold the package temporarily while the matter gets sorted out.
     
  16. cimo Mar 1, 2017

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    @Foo2rama Thank you that is very helpful information. I will see where I get with the credit card company and the PD myself, after which I may very well take you up on your offer. Again I appreciate it.

    @ffej4 I agree it is theft through and through. I have heard of cases where the seller "refuses" a return and then ebay does not require them to return the item, but this buyer did not ever request a return or even file a dispute with ebay. The package was delivered on February 8, 2017 and I have his signature on a digital USPS proof of delivery document. He does not appear to live in a dorm. According to google street view, he lives in a rather nice neighborhood. His neighbor drives a Tesla.
     
  17. OmegaLover Omega, please be my Valentine! Mar 1, 2017

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    Paypal or any other company that tells you our policy no money & no item, that is wrong and illegal. No company can hide under its own terms & conditions to bypass the law.

    Paypal holds operational license from every state in US. And I am sure additional licences for international operation.

    https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/licenses

    File a small claim on a minimum.
     
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  18. cimo Mar 1, 2017

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    @OmegaLover Thank you that is a good suggestion. Do you suggest I file in small claims court against PayPal in my state? Or travel to his state and file against him individually?
     
  19. OmegaLover Omega, please be my Valentine! Mar 1, 2017

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    Yes Paypal in your state. Because Paypal is putting you in this position not the buyer. Buyer just following basic dispute procedure that was giving to him by his Credit card company. The terms of dispute that Paypal gave you are illegal.
     
  20. dlim4evah Mar 1, 2017

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    Yikes! I'm sorry to hear about your situation. I really hope you can get some sort of recourse from your dilemma. A lot of good suggestions from the folks here, and worth trying.