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cchen
·Nowhere does it say Paypal is the only option allowed
Victim of fraudulent eBay buyer - need advice
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OmegaLover
·In a perfect world all CC companies also including eBay/Paypal would need to update policy, manuals and train customer service to handle high value items as its on category with new rules. More people buying high value items online, financial system is outdated to handle this type of transactions online. In all honesty right now high value items are handle just like low value items of $5, $10 dollars.
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Edward53
·Not true.... I see active listings now that don't even offer Paypal as an option and have bank/wire transfer
Ebay regulations vary depending what country the seller is based in. On ebay.de (Germany) for example, sellers can and frequently do specify no Paypal and accept only bank transfer. ETA: Germany is also notorious for its odd feedback system, where it is virtually impossible to leave a negative for the seller no matter what crap they have palmed off on you. A seller may actually be based outside Germany but have registered their account on German ebay, which accounts for the 100% feedback of at least one uk seller I know of who peddles a load of absolute horse cock masquerading as quality goods and seems to attract an endless stream of credulous mugs. If you are a criminal who knows the ins and outs of the system, ebay can be a very happy playground.
Edited:
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Retsamaes
·@Foo2rama Thank you that is very helpful information. I will see where I get with the credit card company and the PD myself, after which I may very well take you up on your offer. Again I appreciate it.
@ffej4 I agree it is theft through and through. I have heard of cases where the seller "refuses" a return and then ebay does not require them to return the item, but this buyer did not ever request a return or even file a dispute with ebay. The package was delivered on February 8, 2017 and I have his signature on a digital USPS proof of delivery document. He does not appear to live in a dorm. According to google street view, he lives in a rather nice neighborhood. His neighbor drives a Tesla.
You never know they are still some decent people out there.
Good luck
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javadave61
·Make sure PayPal sees this thread, given there's a lot of potential sales (and PayPal earnings) just represented in those who have posted here. It would be in PayPal's best interest for this thread to end well.
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cwindham
·Terrible situation and I feel for you. I just wanted to chime in on EBay's new policy with PayPal as I listed a rather large watch for sale not too long ago and wanted to opt for wire (because of PayPal fees and to avoid any charge backs.) Apparently eBay now scans the ad and a message pops up basically saying "You can't mention payment by wire transfer. As of January eBay has instituted a PayPal only option and no longer allows for transactions paid through wire transfer."
The funny thing is that they mention this new policy is to protect buyers & sellers.
EBay and PayPal are the same company anyway. They merged in 2002 so it would be in Epals best interest to cut out wire transfers. They cant double dip if its not through PayPal. Plus, wire transfers are a thing of the past with no buyer protection(or relatively little protection). Just like the FAX, wire transfers are still around but there are better alternatives to transferring money.
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cwindham
·I try and always only ever accept giftedandit has saved me in the past.
I understand that's not possible with say @WatchVaultNYC but that's the route I go. I have such a good reputation that no one ever argues with me over it.
Saves everyone 3% and now you won't have an issue. But I'll assume it's different when they pay via a CC and they can get fight it.
I think I'm done dealing with PayPal after your ordeal as I almost had this happen with a $5,300 item I sold. I am usually stressed out the entire time I'm waiting for the person to receive the item.
If you send money to someone as a "gift" then the buyer is not protected from a fraudulent seller. If the person is trustworthy, like you state then its no problem.
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gatorcpa
··ΩF InvestiGatoreBay and PayPal separated in 2015.
https://www.paypal.com/us/selfhelp/article/why-did-ebay-and-paypal-separate-faq3030
The problem with both companies is that neither are really set up to handle high-dollar portable item transactions other than automobiles and coins/stamps/paper money. There are specific guidelines for those items on the sites.
Jewelry and watches fall outside these guidelines, so the people working there are totally clueless.
gatorcpa
https://www.paypal.com/us/selfhelp/article/why-did-ebay-and-paypal-separate-faq3030
The problem with both companies is that neither are really set up to handle high-dollar portable item transactions other than automobiles and coins/stamps/paper money. There are specific guidelines for those items on the sites.
Jewelry and watches fall outside these guidelines, so the people working there are totally clueless.
gatorcpa
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OmegaLover
·eBay and PayPal separated in 2015.
https://www.paypal.com/us/selfhelp/article/why-did-ebay-and-paypal-separate-faq3030
The problem with both companies is that neither are really set up to handle high-dollar portable item transactions other than automobiles and coins/stamps/paper money. There are specific guidelines for those items on the sites.
Jewelry and watches fall outside these guidelines, so the people working there are totally clueless.
gatorcpa
Totally agree. Another issue special rules only apply on specific categories, but eBay fails to realize in every category high-dollar items, that need protection, special rules for high-dollar items throughout all categories, this is what needs to be do.
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cimo
·Really appreciate the great advice and input you have all given. The issue is still not resolved, but I thought I would update with an interesting development.
I called PayPal again today to check on the status of the charge back (which was filed on Monday, today being Friday), and spoke with a CS rep who volunteered to release the funds from being frozen in my account. He did still specify that it will take up to 75 days for the fraudulent buyer's bank to make a decision regarding the chargeback, at which time the original amount could again be debited from my account should the cardholder's bank decide in his favor.
I'm not sure what to make of this. In the mean time I have researched small claims court procedures and consulted a friend of mine who specializes in contract law. I have come up with what I believe to be a fairly strong legal argument should I need to appear before a judge. Will continue to update as I learn more.
I called PayPal again today to check on the status of the charge back (which was filed on Monday, today being Friday), and spoke with a CS rep who volunteered to release the funds from being frozen in my account. He did still specify that it will take up to 75 days for the fraudulent buyer's bank to make a decision regarding the chargeback, at which time the original amount could again be debited from my account should the cardholder's bank decide in his favor.
I'm not sure what to make of this. In the mean time I have researched small claims court procedures and consulted a friend of mine who specializes in contract law. I have come up with what I believe to be a fairly strong legal argument should I need to appear before a judge. Will continue to update as I learn more.
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flw
··history nerdReally appreciate the great advice and input you have all given. The issue is still not resolved, but I thought I would update with an interesting development.
I called PayPal again today to check on the status of the charge back (which was filed on Monday, today being Friday), and spoke with a CS rep who volunteered to release the funds from being frozen in my account. He did still specify that it will take up to 75 days for the fraudulent buyer's bank to make a decision regarding the chargeback, at which time the original amount could again be debited from my account should the cardholder's bank decide in his favor.
I'm not sure what to make of this. In the mean time I have researched small claims court procedures and consulted a friend of mine who specializes in contract law. I have come up with what I believe to be a fairly strong legal argument should I need to appear before a judge. Will continue to update as I learn more.
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WatchVaultNYC
·If the funds have been released, even temporarily, move them out of your account until you get the watch back.
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night0wl
·Thats not going to help, Paypal will sic OP with the debt collector if CC company decides against him and OP ends up with negative balance. OP does not pay up? Bad credit score awaits
PayPal actually doesn't report to any credit bureaus and neither do their agencies they use for collections. So technically OP could move the money out and unlink all accounts associated afterwards to secure his funds, this is why PayPal freezes the funds in the first place. If then PayPal doesn't do the right thing; well he's out nothing because nothing goes to any credit bureaus and collections are trying to collect debt they can't do anything about.
Additionally credit is only ever checked if you open a premier or business account and even still they don't report to bureaus other than a hard check showing up.
Honestly, they more I read I to stuff to try and help OP the more of a scam I find PayPal to be.
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OmegaLover
·Really appreciate the great advice and input you have all given. The issue is still not resolved, but I thought I would update with an interesting development.
I called PayPal again today to check on the status of the charge back (which was filed on Monday, today being Friday), and spoke with a CS rep who volunteered to release the funds from being frozen in my account. He did still specify that it will take up to 75 days for the fraudulent buyer's bank to make a decision regarding the chargeback, at which time the original amount could again be debited from my account should the cardholder's bank decide in his favor.
I'm not sure what to make of this. In the mean time I have researched small claims court procedures and consulted a friend of mine who specializes in contract law. I have come up with what I believe to be a fairly strong legal argument should I need to appear before a judge. Will continue to update as I learn more.
OP just so you understand, bank charge-back case manager makes decisions based on information provided by both parties. Buyer has direct communication with bank case manager at any point till case close. Buyer also has an option to edit, add or withdraw information as long as case open. This puts buyer in winning postilion. This information is not communicated to you by Paypal. Paypal policy handling charge-backs is limited and puts you instantly in losing position. You have no direct access to the case that is open at that bank against you and no contact with bank case manager. Bank charge-back case can be reopen unlimited times as long as one of the parties active and provides information. Bank will close the case when both parties resolve the issue, or one of them does not follow-up or ignores the case for 90 days give or take.
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WatchVaultNYC
·PayPal actually doesn't report to any credit bureaus and neither do their agencies they use for collections. So technically OP could move the money out and unlink all accounts associated afterwards to secure his funds, this is why PayPal freezes the funds in the first place. If then PayPal doesn't do the right thing; well he's out nothing because nothing goes to any credit bureaus and collections are trying to collect debt they can't do anything about.
Additionally credit is only ever checked if you open a premier or business account and even still they don't report to bureaus other than a hard check showing up.
Honestly, they more I read I to stuff to try and help OP the more of a scam I find PayPal to be.
OK I read up more on this - it's true that you don't get reported to the credit bureaus, but you still get the debt collectors harassing you, plus you can't use Paypal anymore until your debt is paid.
I find this more escaping the situation than winning it. None of the above actions gets OPs watch back and then lives like a fugitive from debt collectors and not able to use PP. None of this should be happening to the OP, who was the wronged party. Scam buyer should be the one hounded by the debt collectors.
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HiddeninAihara
·I've been scammed once online, and that was when I was 16 playing a mmorpg game buying gold and weapons with real money.
I never let it happen again. Honestly, both buying and selling on Ebay is sketchy as hell. I don't just sell to anyone, just like a lot of members on here. There are measures that you have to take before shipping out the item.
I ask myself 5 questions.
1) When did the eBay user create his account/ Join ebay
2) What's their feedback history on eBay like.. within the last 60 months, 12 months, 60 days. etc
3) What were their purchases like? Are they big ticket items or small trinkets?
4) Is this bastard really trustworthy?
5) Do I feel good about this person?
If it's a no for the last 2 questions I do either 1 of 2 things. I ask for their employer contact, and I'll call their employer to verify the buyer or i'll just straight up refund them.
Works everytime lol.. so far.
I've once asked for their facebook, and stalked where they lived, worked and who they knew to make sure that I was able to ship out without being screwed.
I never let it happen again. Honestly, both buying and selling on Ebay is sketchy as hell. I don't just sell to anyone, just like a lot of members on here. There are measures that you have to take before shipping out the item.
I ask myself 5 questions.
1) When did the eBay user create his account/ Join ebay
2) What's their feedback history on eBay like.. within the last 60 months, 12 months, 60 days. etc
3) What were their purchases like? Are they big ticket items or small trinkets?
4) Is this bastard really trustworthy?
5) Do I feel good about this person?
If it's a no for the last 2 questions I do either 1 of 2 things. I ask for their employer contact, and I'll call their employer to verify the buyer or i'll just straight up refund them.
Works everytime lol.. so far.
I've once asked for their facebook, and stalked where they lived, worked and who they knew to make sure that I was able to ship out without being screwed.
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cimo
·Another update: the buyer finally responded to my eBay message. He still has not offered to return the watch. I told him I will give him a refund if he returns it to me.
Instead he just wrote a long list of reasons he believed it wasn't as described, which included 1) strap wear (its a used watch) 2) scratches on the case (simply untrue) 3) not working (also untrue, I confirmed all functions working the day I sent it. plus why did it take him 3 weeks to notice if it didn't work???) and 4) he claimed the TAG box was from a different model (I don't even know how to respond that)
I called eBay and PayPal again and got the same story from eBay (can't help me because he went outside of eBay) and PayPal said not to worry that they will contact me if they need any more information for the dispute but that even if I lose they will "take the hit." Hopefully it won't get to the point where I need to find out if that's true or not.
Instead he just wrote a long list of reasons he believed it wasn't as described, which included 1) strap wear (its a used watch) 2) scratches on the case (simply untrue) 3) not working (also untrue, I confirmed all functions working the day I sent it. plus why did it take him 3 weeks to notice if it didn't work???) and 4) he claimed the TAG box was from a different model (I don't even know how to respond that)
I called eBay and PayPal again and got the same story from eBay (can't help me because he went outside of eBay) and PayPal said not to worry that they will contact me if they need any more information for the dispute but that even if I lose they will "take the hit." Hopefully it won't get to the point where I need to find out if that's true or not.
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OmegaLover
·Another update: the buyer finally responded to my eBay message. He still has not offered to return the watch. I told him I will give him a refund if he returns it to me.
Instead he just wrote a long list of reasons he believed it wasn't as described, which included 1) strap wear (its a used watch) 2) scratches on the case (simply untrue) 3) not working (also untrue, I confirmed all functions working the day I sent it. plus why did it take him 3 weeks to notice if it didn't work???) and 4) he claimed the TAG box was from a different model (I don't even know how to respond that)
I called eBay and PayPal again and got the same story from eBay (can't help me because he went outside of eBay) and PayPal said not to worry that they will contact me if they need any more information for the dispute but that even if I lose they will "take the hit." Hopefully it won't get to the point where I need to find out if that's true or not.
OP, All 3 Buyer/eBay/Paypal working the system against you.
1. Remind buyer the seriousness of the situation. If item not returned there are legal financial & criminal charges. You need to get the item back asap. Based of the condition you get your item back and if its not the same as you ship you can take further auction against the buyer if need it.
2. eBay is well aware of this issue with charge-backs, but has done nothing. eBay accommodates this behavior with zero recollection to the buyer. With no help, warning or support to the seller. This is wrong. In sense eBay facilitates this type of behavior and is technically liable.
3. Paypal already reply to Bank charge-back and at this point can not do much. Now Paypal CS will tell you pretty much anything to calm you down. Do not believe or trust one word that comes out from Paypal CS, unless its in guidelines of policy. If Paypal is willing to take the hit, have it in writing or it means nothing.
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gatorcpa
··ΩF InvestiGatorI would still recommend getting the US Postal Inspectors involved.
Assuming you are in the US, let your buyer know that if the watch is not received back by a certain date, you will open a case.
If the buyer is not in the US and you are, it may give you some leverage with the credit card people and/or PayPal.
Good luck,
gatorcpa
Edit - I'm not sure that state courts (like small claims) would have jurisdiction here, as once the USPS is involved it becomes a federal matter, especially if your buyer is in a different state than you.
Assuming you are in the US, let your buyer know that if the watch is not received back by a certain date, you will open a case.
If the buyer is not in the US and you are, it may give you some leverage with the credit card people and/or PayPal.
Good luck,
gatorcpa
Edit - I'm not sure that state courts (like small claims) would have jurisdiction here, as once the USPS is involved it becomes a federal matter, especially if your buyer is in a different state than you.
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Edward53
·I don't know US law, but in the UK this is the point at which I would advise the buyer that I have now made every reasonable effort to resolve the matter, that I consider this an attempt to defraud and unless I receive either a full refund or the watch in its original condition (and I will video the opening of the package) within 14 days, I will initiate legal proceedings. I will also communicate this information by letter to his postal address and I cannot be held responsible for the effect of any credit blacklisting on others resident at that address.
That sort of thing tends to sober people up.
That sort of thing tends to sober people up.
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