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  1. Togri v. 2.0

    Togri v. 2.0 Aug 22, 2016

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    I am amazed by the detective work here. I wonder where Mr. Vargas graduated from. University of Autodidactism perhaps.
     
  2. Pvt-Public

    Pvt-Public Aug 22, 2016

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    No fair, I had to look that one up! ::censored::
     
  3. rcs914

    rcs914 Aug 22, 2016

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    Having had the pleasure of him sending me messages on Facebook regarding this, I absolutely guarantee that there is nothing in this world that will convince him otherwise regarding the origin of these watches, and that they are WW2 origin. He's definitely of the "double down and be twice as sure" when confronted with information that doesn't fit his worldview.
     
  4. gatorcpa

    gatorcpa ΩF InvestiGator Staff Member Aug 22, 2016

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    I'd challenge him to a battle of wits, but I don't fight unarmed men.
    gatorcpa
     
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  5. rcs914

    rcs914 Aug 22, 2016

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    Iocaine powder - the other item in these barter kits.
     
    Foo2rama likes this.
  6. TNTwatch

    TNTwatch Aug 24, 2016

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    Thanks for the pictures. What are the chances that Milus invented and made the ETA 2472 in the 1940s? ;)
     
  7. Archer

    Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Aug 25, 2016

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    Just to note, the ETA 2472 is an automatic movement (serviced tons of these in the old Doxa 300t divers - the originals), so it appears that they were modifying these to be manual wind only in production at Milus. They don't usually have cap jewels on the train wheels in the 2472 - not sure if this one actually uses conical pivots on those wheels, but if AAAKK asks me to service this one at some point, I'll pay attention to that. Note that the shock absorber it typically Incabloc, so these are modified quite a lot to get to what you see here.

    Cheers, Al
     
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  8. rcs914

    rcs914 Aug 25, 2016

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    So with the new information posted by @AAAKK recently I decided to reply to the message that Mr. Vargas sent me through Facebook back in July. I sent him this:

    "Hi Mr, Vargas - I realize this is a late reply, but I appreciate the information, and the kits in question are absolutely fascinating. Being that they are DOD created, it is too bad they didn't stamp production dates on them. One of the users at a group that has been having a discussion about this has one of the Milus Snow Star watches in question, and had taken the back of it off. His contains a handwind ETA 2472 movement. I'm really not trying to be a pain, but if you research the history of that movement you will find that it wasn't produced until the 1960's."

    I hadn't actually meant to send that as is - I had written it out and then hit return to get a new line, which sent the message instead, because Facebook. So I followed it up with this:

    "And I didn't really mean to send that yet. Or possibly to send it at all - but I hit return to get a new paragraph and Facebook sent it. I have no interest in an argument about it. I should have been much more careful in my original comment to you on your post about the kit in the first place, and less blunt. But I do urge you to take one that you have and look at the movement yourself."

    To which I received the following reply. It is also posted on the Omegaforums Facebook page too (by Mr. Vargas):


    " John Vargas
    As you are a less than honorable man, I have already posted this on the Facebook Omega Page…

    ________

    Mr. Staley,

    Small world…I have friends on this forum.

    https://omegaforums.net/threads/time-capsule.42389/

    I wasn’t paid to do anything for Milus, they merely contacted me about the kits.

    Two, I didn’t delete anything from Milus, they kept deleting my posts, I belive they deleted yours as well.

    An acquaintance of mine cut and paste what I originally posted I believe I am not sure that the post is still there as I have not looked.

    I received my information from the Department of the Navy as to when the kits were made and used, this was long before I had any contact with Milus. For the historical experts on the forum, they can contact the U.S. Naval History and Heritage Command.

    I have no association with Milus, outside of them acquiring two consecutive serial numbers kits from me that is where, they asked me how I acquired them, what history I had on them and that is where it ended.

    Doron Basha, who at the time was President of Milus USA is the one who came up with the story behind the reissue Kits, the erroneous name, the wrong dog tags…the story he put together for the reissue kits were his and his alone, I have nothing to do with it.

    “I'm debating the kindest way I can reply to Mr. Vargas, or if I should at all. While there is the (not so great) part of me that LOVES to correct people when they are unequivocally wrong, this isn't a particularly admirable trait. It is evident that he has built at least a part of his reputation on these kits and it is completely understandable that he may want to double down when confronted with evidence that changes his world view. I care only in that I like factual and complete information and it bugs the crap out of me when people repeat hearsay as truth. But in the overall scheme of things, what does it matter?”

    The ball is in your court Mr. Staley, as you are less than a gentleman and subversive in your actions…prove me wrong, I am not here to prove I am right…I have zero need to “double down” as you say… I have nothing to do with Milus, the reissue kits, or anything other than they came from my personal collection and what information I had was given to Milus.

    You will change my mind when you convince the U.S. Naval History and Heritage Command to change theirs.

    [​IMG]
    Time Capsule
    Hi Can I play, my 1942 Time capsule, Original box set, Gold, Watch These box sets were sold off by the US.Gov in 1980 Most of the sets were unopened...
    omegaforums.net
    "

    Now I didn't particularly appreciate the tone, or being called "Less than honorable" and "subversive". But obviously he took umbrage with what I wrote and how I wrote it here. But I still wrote a reply:

    "Instead Mr. Vargas, why don't you join the forum and join in on the debate regarding the watches? There has been much speculation regarding both your motives and the motives of the current Milus watch company. But it is only speculation! And no, not all of it is kind, but such is the nature of the internet and forums in general. We are too far removed from each other, and sometimes have a difficult time remembering that there is another human being on the other end of what we are typing - perhaps this is the same for you when you are besmirching my character without knowing me?

    You quoted me above - something I wrote a month and a half ago, shortly after you messaged me here on facebook originally. I am not sure where you are getting anything regarding me being honorable or less than honorable. - being a gentleman or less than a gentleman. Is it because what I wrote there was more blunt than what I wrote you yesterday?

    When I wrote you yesterday I was being polite - not subversive. New information had been brought forward on the thread on the forum, and it was then, based on that information, clear that the watches are of a later origin. So I debated replying to your message, and I wrote out what I had said. You might notice that it was written politely. I likely was not going to send it, but wanted to get my thoughts down about it. Have you ever written a letter to someone but then thought better about sending it? Unfortunately I pressed return to get a new line, and instead it sent the message. My mistake - which I stated at the time.

    I went back and read everything that I wrote (rcs914) on Omega Forums from that thread, and nothing that I wrote there, or in what I wrote to you yesterday deserves you calling my character into question - I even stated that it is a less than admirable trait of mine to want to correct people when they are wrong - I fully admit this. Was what I wrote there the same way I would have said something to your face, or if I were writing you directly? No - but I didn't call you names, I didn't call your credentials into question, etc. I pointed out that while you may be a very knowledgeable and respected historian, watches are unlikely to be your specialty, while they are the specialty of many members on the forum. We all learn from each other in life Mr. Vargas, and recognize that we can't know everything. I don't need to change your mind - it's why I wrote what I wrote to you the way I did. Please research it yourself - there is lots of information regarding watch movements available online and in other places.

    Again I encourage you to register on the forum and discuss the issue at hand. In the interest of transparency, I will copy what you wrote to me above, and paste it in a comment, along with this reply to you as well. The Omega Forums Facebook page isn't the correct place to write that to me. On Omegaforums.net would be, in the "Time Capsule" thread that you pasted the link to above."

    So we will see if he joins.
     
  9. Foo2rama

    Foo2rama Keeps his worms in a ball instead of a can. Aug 25, 2016

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    Well since the US Navy Museam changed its register of them away from WWII...
     
  10. AAAKK

    AAAKK First listing in the ΩF B2B phone book Aug 25, 2016

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    I've got to thank @Archer for removing the caseback and taking the pics. I was unable to loosen off the back but Al made quick work of it. And the pics are waaay better than if I took them.
     
  11. TNTwatch

    TNTwatch Aug 25, 2016

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    It was supposedly a customized ETA 2408 in there, which is a manual wound variant of the same generation as the 2472. With many of the same features between the two references, perhaps the base plate is the same and got mixed up during assembly of this particular watch.
     
  12. dsio

    dsio Ash @ ΩF Staff Member Sep 24, 2016

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    I don't know anything about this thread but this guy keeps posting stuff on the OF Facebook page because he doesn't want to do it in this thread for some reason, today he added the following:

     
  13. Foo2rama

    Foo2rama Keeps his worms in a ball instead of a can. Sep 24, 2016

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    I think I figured it out.
    Basically its the movie the "Final Countdown" A navy carrier went back in time and gave these kits that contained a movement from the late 60's to the USN in WWII.

    or realistically
    A kit was made that had similar items inside with a different watch in it. Even the USN NHCC no longer lists this kit as WWII on their website...
     
  14. Foo2rama

    Foo2rama Keeps his worms in a ball instead of a can. Sep 25, 2016

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    Ok I responded to him, and now it looks like he admits the watch was added later or was upgraded.

    Isn't the whole Milus marketing based on his validation of the kit with that watch?
     
  15. Sanmilc

    Sanmilc Sep 25, 2016

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    If this is a 40´s watch is kind of the Antikythera mechanism mystery
     
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  16. Mr.H

    Mr.H Sep 25, 2016

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    Hi
    Picture of the rubber blocks, I have two sets one with the original serial number removed, both sets look like they may have been re-glued at some point
    upload_2016-9-25_15-46-17.png
     
  17. Mr.H

    Mr.H Sep 25, 2016

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  18. Mr.H

    Mr.H Sep 25, 2016

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    Rings ... all have a reddish shellac coating & are stamped inside 100%
    upload_2016-9-25_15-56-23.png
    upload_2016-9-25_15-57-2.png
    upload_2016-9-25_15-57-49.png
     
  19. Mr.H

    Mr.H Sep 25, 2016

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    upload_2016-9-25_15-59-4.png
    upload_2016-9-25_16-7-23.png
    upload_2016-9-25_16-0-7.png
     
    Edited Sep 25, 2016
  20. Mr.H

    Mr.H Sep 25, 2016

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    Pendants
    upload_2016-9-25_16-9-42.png upload_2016-9-25_16-11-24.png