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Thoughts on a 145.012-67

maxbelg
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bgrisso bgrisso
.....What are you expenses like, ballpark, compared to just buying a nice original example? Was your approach a significant savings?...........This one at least would be obvious as a project watch to anyone who ordered an extract.......

I ended up paying just more than 6000 Euro Head only after selling the redundant parts. I have the extract as I've stated that the watch was exported to Japan in April of 1968, so no it isn't obvious at all that it's a project watch.
Edited:
 
maxbelg
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BenBagbag BenBagbag
I like what you did here. It is inherently a franken (not a marriage) as the movement is not a speedy movement. We "see the scars" so to speak. Also you mentioned that you have an extract that it was shipped to Japan in '68. Is that true?

The movement is a Speedy movement with parts changed but the movement is the same and made at the same time by the same company. The serial number is from the Speedy which was shipped to Japan in April of 1968. I don't think it qualifies as a Frankenwatch at all because it has all the correct parts. It could be described as "restored" with lots of parts.

That was the reason I posted this: We all tend to criticise watches which aren't original but we often don't know. This watch "could" have left the factory this way because all parts are correct but it didn't. You only know this because I told you. If you buy a watch online you usually don't know and the seller maybe also doesn't know unless a part is not period-correct! So "buying the seller" only works when the seller knows what happened to a watch the last 5 decades. The fact that it's relumed could have been estabilished but that's about it.

Indeed it's an almost philosophical question whether knowing it's been restored this way diminishes the pleasure of owning it. I'm very happy to own a period-correct 321 Speedy in absolutely great shape which I can wear daily. I wasn't happy at all with the Speedy I bought from Italy.
Edited:
 
BenBagbag
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maxbelg maxbelg
a 321 donor movement from a non-Speedy from 1965
Ah so when you say this it implies that some parts were used from the donor movement but the serial belongs to a speedy. See where I got confused?

Ya it wouldn't be a Franken in that sense then.
 
maxbelg
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BenBagbag BenBagbag
Ah so when you say this it implies that some parts were used from the donor movement but the serial belongs to a speedy. See where I got confused?

Ya it wouldn't be a Franken in that sense then.

Exactly 😀
 
eugeneandresson
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maxbelg maxbelg
I wasn't happy at all with the Speedy I bought from Italy.

Getting lots of bad-press / consensus about buying from Italy on the OF ... and you managed to recover from the 3rd-degree burns quite nicely with minimal scarring ...
 
maxbelg
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eugeneandresson eugeneandresson
Getting lots of bad-press / consensus about buying from Italy on the OF ... and you managed to recover from the 3rd-degree burns quite nicely with minimal scarring ...

😁 3rd-degree burns is a good way to describe what happened to me when I bought the watch from Italy, although the watch needed more than a skin-transplant. All hail to Christian of course who was willing to take on this project and who did such a nice job reluming the hands and the dial!
 
jacksonking
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Hi Max. It looks great. Build it, wear it, enjoy it!

To keep the discussion interesting, I pose one other consideration: is it ethical for a watchmaker to lume a dial and hands to look like it has vintage patina and color? You intended to share the story of your project. But someone else may intend to defraud. It makes me think of stories of expert counterfeiters making Rembrandt’s. I feel unsure about the deliberate “aging” of the dial.

Only for friendly discussion.

Jack
 
maxbelg
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jacksonking jacksonking
..... is it ethical for a watchmaker to lume a dial and hands to look like it has vintage patina and color?.............

Thanks for your comments and a nice question to discuss!

My personal opinion is that we give far too much value to original lume. In the vintage automobile section we also don't want the original window wipers which don't work anymore and have crumbling rubber which scratch our windows....

There is real danger that the lume will crumble and fall into the movement. Some old lume turns a nasty green colour 🤮too and I wouldn't want to wear a watch like that: my friends who don't know anything about watches would probably take pity on me if they see such a watch on my wrist and buy me a new cheap quartz watch for my birthday 🤦 !

These days there are lots of new watches with lume which isn't white and is the colour of aged tritium. That is also not done to deceive, but to look nice. Obviously this is subjective but most would agree that white superluminova looks out of place on an otherwise aged watch. Therefore I'm all for watchmakers to keep the nice overall vintage look without the green crumbling stuff.....

Of course a watch with original lume which is in perfect all original shape with box and papers in NOS condition is best BUT there aren't many of those around and they tend to command astronomical prices. Even if I bought one of these, I would feel uncomfortable wearing it. This watch I can wear without worry and enjoy every day!
 
bgrisso
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BenBagbag BenBagbag
Ah so when you say this it implies that some parts were used from the donor movement but the serial belongs to a speedy. See where I got confused?

Ya it wouldn't be a Franken in that sense then.

Yes this confused me as well. So the original serial number was retained from the speedy movement?
 
stefman
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I think it looks great! Big congrats on the end result. Do you have before and after pics by any chance?
 
BenBagbag
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maxbelg maxbelg
My personal opinion is that we give far too much value to original lume
I think your statement is worth reevaluating in another 60-100 years, as lume continues to degrade and perhaps will be totally toast (I'm not a scientist)- perhaps then it will be comparable to windshield wipers. In the meantime, it is not as you can find many examples of nice original lume on watches so I think it is a bit of a false comparison. I agree with the premise though just not with the timing: Perhaps in 100 years collector's opinions will change on lume...
 
dsio
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maxbelg maxbelg
My personal opinion is that we give far too much value to original lume. In the vintage automobile section we also don't want the original window wipers which don't work anymore and have crumbling rubber which scratch our windows....

I wouldn't equate lume to wipers, I'd equate it to the original paint which is highly valued
 
maxbelg
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bgrisso bgrisso
Yes this confused me as well. So the original serial number was retained from the speedy movement?
Yes, the original Speedy serial number was retained.
 
MSNWatch
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dsio dsio
I wouldn't equate lume to wipers, I'd equate it to the original paint which is highly valued

Agreed - wipers = gaskets.
 
maxbelg
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dsio dsio
I wouldn't equate lume to wipers, I'd equate it to the original paint which is highly valued

You have a point BUT it needs to be in great shape then and not crumbling off or be completely discoloured.
 
maxbelg
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stefman stefman
I think it looks great! Big congrats on the end result. Do you have before and after pics by any chance?

Thanks, I'm very happy with the end result too!

Here's the link to Christian's Photo Library page of the restoration:
https://watchguy.co.uk/cgi-bin/library?action=show_photos&wat_id=2594&tk_id=842879309

Please note that I had the original pushers re-installed when the new ones didn't seal better. I also got a NOS movement ring after the last picture because the old one wasn't in great shape at all.
 
Nathan1967
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maxbelg maxbelg
Thanks for your comment! For those interested Christian has made a blog-entry about this project here:
http://watchguy.co.uk/restoration-omega-speedmaster-145-012-67/#comment-951692

Thanks Max, I love the pictures and commentary, provides first class history and validation of the Watch. He’s done a great job!

I’ve really enjoyed your post, thanks very much for taking the time, I think you may have changed some entrenched points of view with it. So it’s definitely added value.
 
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