The usual newbie question, did they see me coming :-)

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Happy New year to all.

You have probably all heard this plea before and like a lot of newbie's I only thought of looking in the right place for information after purchasing. In my case my heart won out over my head and I bought the item below as have desired owning an Omega for years and this was in my price range (cheap).

What I would like opinions on is it a bad dial restoration or genuine.

I bought it because I thought the position of the logo was different, not realising how different until I was unable to find more than one other Omega with it at the 6 o'clock position.

Will still enjoy wearing it even if not gen', as can be seen by the scratch on the glass, my bad. I believe the movement and case to be good unless anyone tells me different.

any help is much appreciated.
 
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A poor redial. Sorry

But we all have a newbie tax watch. 😉

Kudos for starting with an Avatar and a bit about your watch.

Plenty here will help you with your future Nice looking next piece if you ask us before.
 
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Sorry but a really bad redial.

Incorrect movement as well, the case is supposed to have a NO date movement.

Crown is incorrect as well and the case is very badly worn/polished.

Can you return it and start over?
Edited:
 
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Thanks for the quick replies, much appreciated.

You have all confirmed what I thought and then some.

@X350 XJR As I am just starting out on the journey I am curious to know how you could tell the movement is in the wrong case. Is it what I have heard called a Frankenstein piece?

@STANDY thanks for the advice I will most certainly be asking everyone's opinion in future.

Will not be returning it as some lessons are hard learned and as mentioned I did not pay a fortune.

I hope to go on a BHS coarse on watch servicing and repair when a spot becomes available as want something to do during retirement and have always been fascinated with mechanical watches. Will probably use it as a project/restoration depending on cost of vending parts 😀

thanks again.
 
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Rule of thumb is that vintage black dials require extra care. It must be something with the lacquer they used but they're never in good shape and 90% are redials.

In the case of your 165.002, the reference pictures I found shows it without the date. So having a 565 movement (non-chronometer movement with date) won't be the correct movement for the 165.002. If you look at other 165.002, you'll see how different yours is compared to others (lugs, crown, dial, etc.).

Omega picture of 165.002: Vintage Watch: Seamaster OMEGA ST 165.0002 | OMEGA US® (omegawatches.com)

Chrono24 pictures from other sellers of 165.002: Omega Seamaster 165.002 | Ref. 165.002 Watches on Chrono24
 
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The reference number marked inside the case back, in this case, 165.002 tells us the movement should be a caliber 552 24-jewel or 550 17-jewel (US market) movement.

Is it what I have heard called a Frankenstein piece?

Yes, also sometimes referred to as a "bitsa" bits of this and bits of that. Would also appear that the movement has been put together from random parts as well. Note how the rotor is of a different color than the other parts, probably switched out from another watch to cure a worn rotor bushing which is evidenced by rub marks inside the back.
 
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Rule of thumb is that vintage black dials require extra care. It must be something with the lacquer they used but they're never in good shape and 90% are redials.

And 95% of those black redials weren't originally black to begin with.
 
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I hope to go on a BHS coarse on watch servicing and repair when a spot becomes available as want something to do during retirement and have always been fascinated with mechanical watches. Will probably use it as a project/restoration depending on cost of vending parts 😀

Congratulations on retirement.

If you think of it, probably several of us would be interested in seeing on you get on with the watch class and/or project.

Happy New Year back at you!
 
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Some of us enjoy working with random parts. I like to call these rat-watches. Similar things happen in other collection communities. I think the term comes from people in automotive what made hot-rods, and rat-rods from obsolete parts. I think rattyness and rust is an important factor.

Others call them fantasy watches.

Downside is such thing can be seductive. One thinks they are getting a deal with a 35 buck parts movement. Of course it has been stripped of parts. Some thirty years ago I got a bunch of chronographs. Mostly Landeron. Set these aside for 18 years as I lost interest in watches.

When I started working on watches again, I started sourcing parts. What began as 4 or 5 landeron partial plates has now grown to 14 or 15. With hardly a complete cased watch amoung them. Then there are the more expensive Valjoux chronos.

Cases can be a real issue. Many what were solid gold were melted down. Others plated metal literally have fallen apart when the plating falls off. In the case of chronographs, the metal is often really thin. These are popular in large sizes. It does not take much polishing to cut through the side of the case.

Thirty years ago, it was also preferable to repaint the dial. There were half a dozen or more companies that specialized in this. It was a standard part of service. I spent years learning how to fire glass into metal and other jewelry techniques. One thing I do recommend is taking such night and weekend classes. Especially when one is still young. I was also lucky enough to learn about BHI and WOSTEP when I was young. They would not accept me as a student. I was told I old, and I worked for Apple computer at the time. So they did not want to train 'Hobbyist.' Still I got to visit the places, and talk with the people, some of who are now legendary.

Dial printing on the other hand is similar to the way currency is produces with a form of printing called gravier. There have also been large shifts in Intellectual property. The surviving makers, like Omega, Rollex Tag etc spend large sums defending trademarks.

In the days of independand jewlers, Watches were imported as raw movements. Distributors would then case them domestically then distribute them to the independant retailers. Why Zales sold Baylor brand watches with movements made by Tag. Some US teritories in the Caribbean had quite a few watch 'factories.' what assembled such movements.

Some companies like Omega did contract with other companies like Ross or Dennison, to make cases similar to the catalog designs. To many people the case presentation is the watch.

When quartz watches took hold. The model went to extremums. With old trusted names printed on dials with no regards to quality. Companies existed just to buy trademarks.

Thanks to people like Hayek companies like Omega survived. Using Swatch to spin off the cheaper stuff.

One of my favorites was a company called A Schild. This no longer exists. Many of the watches were cased in movements 'Made in Hong Kong.' Still I think some Rolex/Tudor watches may have been made by such companies. It must be understood that billions of watches exist. One or more for every person on the planet. Of course some are limited editions. A small run of which might be 10 or 20 thousand. Surprisingly one off watches can have less value than short runs of watches.

To prevent this sort of thing, the modern consolidated manufactures restrict parts. Ironically, thousands of parts were put into the repair networks. So some parts like A Schild can be had cheap. There were only 4 main chronograph manufactures. Landeron, Venus, Valjoux and Lemania. Of these only Lemania still exists, now owned by the Swatch group. Most companies tend to use in house movements.

Valjoux may sort of exist. That is a bit off subject here. More that what was once dozens, if not hundreds of independant companies are now consolidated. Of these only Omega has a 150 or more years of in house movement consistency. Rollex to a lesser degree. Although that is a brand name, rather than a movement reference.

It then becomes about perception. Many feel 'collectable' watches need to be pristine, and often increase in value over time.

Where franken watches are problematic, is when they are passed off as something they are not. There is nothing wrong with them as long as their is full disclosure. They do make for nice learning projects, although if too worn, the issues can lead to more frustration than not. Most often in is the winding works what are worn out.

It takes about 3 to 4 hours of highly skilled labor to do a basic service on a watch. This now works out to 2 to 4 hundred in local currency units. Back in the day it was 20 to 40 currency units. One of my mentors would say modern people wanted a 100K a year and a 10 cent candy bar.

Since I like to self repair, I would love having a watch like the one the OP presents. At the moment I have limited income, so could not go out and acquire a bunch of similar watches which are selling for the cost of a repair. 200 to 400 currency units. I still like nickel candy bars or watches that sell for the price of a meal (35 to 65 currency units.) Still if one adds up how often one eats, it turns out that the cheaper watches can be much more expensive.

Still watch parts in the mail are way more exciting than watches in the drawer which one has had for decades. A lot of it becomes about the hunt and the chase.

Then there are the watches with the mangled hairsprings ...
 
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There were only 4 main chronograph manufactures. Landeron, Venus, Valjoux and Lemania. Of these only Lemania still exists, now owned by the Swatch group.

If you stretch really really hard, you could almost make the argument that Venus still exists as Tianjin Watch Company (aka Seagull). Same manufacturing equipment and same design at least.
 
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If I recall correctly Valjoux also sort of exists via the 7750 movement. Did ETA take that over? I was too lasey to research it. I was thinking Seagull was the Chinese Valjoux. I also seem to recall they sort of merged toward the end.

Of course none of these have the same consistency as Omega/Lemania.
 
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There were only 4 main chronograph manufactures. Landeron, Venus, Valjoux and Lemania. Of these only Lemania still exists, now owned by the Swatch group.
For completeness you can add Excelsior Park and Martel/Universal.
If I recall correctly Valjoux also sort of exists via the 7750 movement. Did ETA take that over?
Yes, so also part of Swatch. It doesn’t seem to be a distinct entity like Lemania is (as Manufacture Breguet), but I don’t know how these companies are organized internally. The same goes for Martel which lives on at least spiritually within Zenith.
 
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Thirty years ago, it was also preferable to repaint the dial.

.

Not only dials but also hands. This is a rare watch DESTROYED by Breguet! (my2cents)

before: "overall patina with radium" IMO original later hands relumed with ???



after: polished to "new" and with SL (OK, due to silly regulations)



price : 4500 Euro for this "service" by Breguet (in the "Apprentice Department"?)