The Unpolished-Pre-Moon-Straight-Lug-Speedy thread : Show off your facets

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On an artists impression? Many of which were wildly different to production models?

Let me return for a second to the specific case of the -65 vs the 64 and use the principle of Occam's razor. It is plain to see that the overwhelming majority of -65s seen on a quick google search or on here have facets of some form. It is also plain to see that most -64s do not. Why did this mysterious talented refinisher who was able to put such uniform chamfers on the -65 models shy away from doing so to the -64s? The logical explanation is the that the -65 had them and the -64 didn't, not that all the -65s had them added and the -64s for some reason have been spared. The -64 had a sharply radiused curved join between side and top. The -65 (and IMO many earlier models) had facets on the lugs.

Refinishing well is not easy and most times when done by someone other than the factory it leads to soft, rounded facet joins, not a uniform sharp result, that takes sophisticated machinery and skill and is why most refinished vintage watches look crap and are to be avoided.

I can see why you are keen to believe what you believe but I don't think either the weight of evidence or the learned opinion of many other collectors supports it. Did some models have no chamfer, evidently yes. Did all models have none? No, not a chance.

By the way, there has already been a 105.003-63 posted in this thread which has very visible facets, so that doesn't really help the case for that model being like the -64...
 
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I think that often wrong things are considered right if they were wrong long enough.

Referring to the recent re-editions, I know that they were not aware of the original case design, though they would have been able to find it in their own archives.

Show me the bevel on this one:


Are you using this as an example of a 2915/2998 or a -65?

I think you may be right about the early 2915/2998 cases, in that they had more of a gradient than a sharp bevel.

Be wary of using advertising drawings as evidence. You'll need to show in the metal examples for people to take note.
 
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Are you using this as an example of a 2915/2998 or a -65?

I think you may be right about the early 2915/2998 cases, in that they had more of a gradient than a sharp bevel.

Be wary of using advertising drawings as evidence. You'll need to show in the metal examples for people to take note.

Well, I showed a metal example of a 105.003 above and people took note, obviously. 馃榾
 
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On an artists impression? Many of which were wildly different to production models?

Let me return for a second to the specific case of the -65 vs the 64 and use the principle of Occam's razor. It is plain to see that the overwhelming majority of -65s seen on a quick google search or on here have facets of some form. It is also plain to see that most -64s do not. Why did this mysterious talented refinisher who was able to put such uniform chamfers on the -65 models shy away from doing so to the -64s? The logical explanation is the that the -65 had them and the -64 didn't, not that all the -65s had them added and the -64s for some reason have been spared. The -64 had a sharply radiused curved join between side and top. The -65 (and IMO many earlier models) had facets on the lugs.

Refinishing well is not easy and most times when done by someone other than the factory it leads to soft, rounded facet joins, not a uniform sharp result, that takes sophisticated machinery and skill and is why most refinished vintage watches look crap and are to be avoided.

I can see why you are keen to believe what you believe but I don't think either the weight of evidence or the learned opinion of many other collectors supports it. Did some models have no chamfer, evidently yes. Did all models have none? No, not a chance.

By the way, there has already been a 105.003-63 posted in this thread which has very visible facets, so that doesn't really help the case for that model being like the -64...

Believe it or not: I was thinking seriously about posting in this thread again, because I know I fight against windmills.

But at least it's fun to discuss these things. And if everything was for sure, life would be boring. 馃榾
 
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Well, I showed a metal example of a 105.003 above and people took note, obviously. 馃榾

One swallow doesn't make a summer.

No ones saying your -63 is definitely incorrect, but you are the one saying the generally held belief is incorrect. I'd say it's down to you to post other examples backing up your case.

Several people have commented or shown examples on the -64/-65 no bevel/bevel debate. What's your thoughts on that? Do you still think all has no bevels originally?
 
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One swallow doesn't make a summer.

No ones saying your -63 is definitely incorrect, but you are the one saying the generally held belief is incorrect. I'd say it's down to you to post other examples backing up your case.

Several people have commented or shown examples on the -64/-65 no bevel/bevel debate. What's your thoughts on that? Do you still think all has no bevels originally?

Yes it's true. A swallow doesn't make a summer. But I really love my '63 swallow. 馃榾

And all I said here is that I don't believe there were bevels from factory. I stated that I believe they are the result of refinishing / polishing the most exposed parts (outer side of the lugs) of the case. And that this was so common, that we can see it everywhere and have learned it's commonly correct.

As far as I might be unsure about this, it would be only the 105.003-65, because this was the last straight lug reference and I could imagine they changed the case design then.

And yes. All straight lugged Speedies with no bevels look original to me.
 
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No facets 馃槻馃槻馃槻
This has turned into a real 馃嵖 thread.

So what I am reading from the above, is that the picture of the case on the left is polished/ground/tampered with since leaving the factory, and the one on the right is untouched?



I know I am comparing apples to pears (2998 vs 105003 case, maybe different manufacturers, maybe 2998's had PHatter lugs than 105003's etc etc etc) however I am with Mr Occam and his razor generally speaking ...

Edit : and I am not saying the one on the right is polished (the overall condition of the watch is stellar) and the one on the left not, but when comparing apples to apples (if these cases were from the same year/reference/manufacturer), it would be clear what the consensus would be don't you think?
Edited:
 
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No facets 馃槻馃槻馃槻
This has turned into a real 馃嵖 thread.

So what I am reading from the above, is that the picture of the case on the left is polished/ground/tampered with since leaving the factory, and the one on the right is untouched?



I know I am comparing apples to pears (2998 vs 105003 case, maybe different manufacturers, maybe 2998's had PHatter lugs than 105003's etc etc etc) however I am with Mr Occam and his razor generally speaking ...

Edit : and I am not saying the one on the right is polished (the overall condition of the watch is stellar) and the one on the left not, but when comparing apples to apples (if these cases were from the same year/reference/manufacturer), it would be clear what the consensus would be don't you think?

I know you are a an established member of this forum and I don't want to argue with you.

So I opened my Popcorn as well and keep waiting for this guy who will come around with all his NOS watches and show us the way.

BTW WTF I can't get this song out of my mind

https://www.google.de/url?sa=t&rct=...=mQR0bXO_yI8&usg=AOvVaw2QrnWznovlxb8jd2jbQqER

Anyone else knows an aid for music problems?
Edited:
 
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No facets 馃槻馃槻馃槻
This has turned into a real 馃嵖 thread.

So what I am reading from the above, is that the picture of the case on the left is polished/ground/tampered with since leaving the factory, and the one on the right is untouched?



I know I am comparing apples to pears (2998 vs 105003 case, maybe different manufacturers, maybe 2998's had PHatter lugs than 105003's etc etc etc) however I am with Mr Occam and his razor generally speaking ...

Edit : and I am not saying the one on the right is polished (the overall condition of the watch is stellar) and the one on the left not, but when comparing apples to apples (if these cases were from the same year/reference/manufacturer), it would be clear what the consensus would be don't you think?

Did I get you right? Can you repeat what's your point of view, just for me, please?
 
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I know you are a an established member of this forum

That doesn't mean anything 馃榾 I don't know much more than I have learnt from the good folk here, and am always open to learning new things (the day I have reached my full capacity for knowledge is the day I kick the bucket)...

I don't want to argue with you.

Its not what one does, but how one does it ... so its all good 馃憤

Can you repeat what's your point of view, just for me, please

One has to compare 'apples' to 'apples'.

Back to the picture I posted : I happened to be in an 'apples to apples' scenario a few months ago...was sitting around a table with some good folk, and there happened to be two near-identical watches on the table ... same reference AND sub reference (2998's) ... and putting them next to each other like in my last picture, was similar to the picture (although the better one had seen some polish, but the bevels were still more or less there) ...the watch that had no bevel also had a much smaller 'polygon' then they one with better defined bevels...its lugs were thinner. Anyway...apples to apples. If you look at Tom Dicks thread referenced up top about the -64's, their lugs do look somehow a bit different.
 
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Thank you. So I'm voting for comparing apples to apples and liking the somehow a bit dfferent. And maybe that is what it's all about. 馃榾
 
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..Did you mention FACETS..?
..Ooooh...Straight lug speedys only..馃槜...

Straight lug CB? Rare watch... Congrats. Great find! 馃檮
Edited:
 
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What about railmaster and seamaster cases? Also all bevel less from the factory?
 
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What about railmaster and seamaster cases? Also all bevel less from the factory?

Why not?
 
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Straight lug HF? Rare watch... Congrats. Great find! 馃檮
Its a 66 CB, those have the extra facet. Your Speedy knowledge is being tested in this thread and not necessarily coming out on top! 馃槈
 
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Its a 66 CB, those have the extra facet. Your Speedy knowledge is being tested in this thread and not necessarily coming out on top!

Yes. CB, sorry.

And while you're just watching, any contribute would be appreciated.
 
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Your Speedy knowledge is being tested in this thread and not necessarily coming out on top!

Absolutely correct. But I wonder where the Speedy knowledge of these forums is then?