Community Stories

The Ethics of a FrankenWatch...

JwRosenthal
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gatorcpa gatorcpa
Not a “re-dial” in my opinion. This would fall in the same class of a service dial. Something that was made by the original manufacturer, intended to replace a worn out part, but is not the original part.

You could sell the watch with a designation of a correct replacement dial. Same would be true of a redial. Your conscience should be clear.

The issue in collector world is not about what you did. It is about what the next owner, or the owners after that would do.

We see this now and again with so-called WatchCo Seamaster 300’s. These are watches that were put together with OEM parts by an Omega parts supplier in Australia. Again, I have no problems with such a piece so long as disclosed, but since many are now in their 3rd or greater owner, their origins might be totally forgotten and advertised as “all original” when clearly they are not.

Not sure what we or should do about this, but the issue is not going away.
gatorcpa
The Watchco is a good example- all factory service parts (except the movement which is vintage), but never left the factory like that.

Obviously we can’t police the watch selling world and keeping up with fraudulent listings on eBay is like playing whack-a-mole, but as a collectors group we can keep the information freely flowing about what is vintage and what isn’t.

Regardless of how many times a new member askes “is this original”, rather than snarking out with “do your homework” or “have you used the search feature” or we are not an appraisal group”- we can simply say- no, it’s not original. If you would like to learn more about them, there are numerous threads here that can be found through the search feature.
 
Bernhard J
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gatorcpa gatorcpa
Not sure what we can or should do about this, but the issue is not going away.

Well rather easy, if one follows classical "conservatory" principles. I do some clock restorations (for own purposes only and running out of space in the near future 😁) and parts, which are replaced or newly made, are marked and dated, at least if they are so well made that one does not notice anyway. I admit that a buyer, who does not disassemble such a clock, will not notice, because the marks are applied such that they are not immediately evident. But any person disassembling the clock for service will notice and easily see what has bee replaced.

If the dial of a wrist watch is replaced, this could perhaps be documented on the rear side of the dial, if it is not evident anyway? It need not be clumsily scratched, of course, but can be done in an appropriate manner. The same could be done with case backs and other "non-original" parts (in the sense that they were not together when the watch was born).

Cheers, Bernhard
 
sheepdoll
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Bernhard J Bernhard J
Well rather easy, if one follows classical "conservatory" principles. I do some clock restorations (for own purposes only and running out of space in the near future 😁) and parts, which are replaced or newly made, are marked and dated, at least if they are so well made that one does not notice anyway. I admit that a buyer, who does not disassemble such a clock, will not notice, because the marks are applied such that they are not immediately evident. But any person disassembling the clock for service will notice and easily see what has bee replaced.

If the dial of a wrist watch is replaced, this could perhaps be documented on the rear side of the dial, if it is not evident anyway? It need not be clumsily scratched, of course, but can be done in an appropriate manner. The same could be done with case backs and other "non-original" parts (in the sense that they were not together when the watch was born).

Cheers, Bernhard
It is not uncommon to find marks under bridges from one watchmaker to another. Mostly on the older PW stuff.

The dolls I like in Neuchâtel have been re-built many times. They have been re-built at least twice since I started studying them. One of the times there was a book printed detailing the progress. Stamped marks as you describe are on many of the parts. For the most recent restoration there is a You-Tube video which is most informative.

I think such marks are more common on clocks. Clocks are quite crude compared to watches. Especially the old wooden ones. I have even made clocks out of paper. One project I was going to do was to bake a clock out of gingerbread. Charles Dickens was amazed that a prisoner made a clock out of found materials.

I do like the idea that any repainted dial should be marked on reverse. Or even a symbol to note that it is a replacement.
Who knows what all the scratches inside the case back mean?

The main issue is that there are those who simply sell things as is. We all know the comic trope of the creep in the trench coat with all the watches pinned inside. I have also seen variations of this with sun dials, and of course cuckoo clocks.

I also know people like members of my family, who do not care. To them all watches are fake watches. Even on the collector trips, it was popular to get Russian watches from the guys in the town square. Same for my Dad's Chairman Mao watch. And my Dad really values the Roluxes he got with it.

So as long as there is demand there will be suppliers of that demand.

Here is an old Avatar I created in the 1990s. I had considered using it here but it is not watch related.

pwith art.png

Sometimes I should revive the http://www.spiralsheep.com/ website. A Wordpress 'security' update broke the database, and all my custom skins were lost. I was becoming a full time job just to add new comic strips and defend the site against attacks. I have a bunch of comic strips scanned to add in, more in the sketchbooks. but the whole scanning process changed with Adobe messed up the programs and made them only work on the old hardware.

I really hate paying twice or more times for something I purchased. The whole subscription thing is krock anyway. When I buy something I expect it to stay purchased.
 
Larry S
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Bernhard J Bernhard J
On the other hand I wonder whether there indeed are wrist watches with an age of 60+, which have an original dial in perfect condition. I would assume that this occurs perhaps in 1 of 1000? I would tend to assume in most cases of such perfect watches a redial, in particular if the case is, in contrast, not in nos condition. Would that be overcautious?

Cheers, Bernhard
Indeed you would be surprised how well some watches have held up over the years. Most of us spend a great deal of time understanding what a correct dial looks like, what a factory service dial looks like, redial etc. We also appreciate patina, as the Japanese refer to it “Wabi Sabe”. The collective “collection” here on OF includes a lot of very nice old birds. You are correct however that a pristine dial from the early half of the 20th draws intense scrutiny. But they are out there.
 
JMO1995
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Going back to the original question and as others have stated I’d say ethics would only come into question if you made a Franken watch and then tried to make out it wasn’t or sell it without clearly identifying that it isn’t an original watch.

If you sold it to someone and they were fully aware it wasn’t authentic but they then tried to sell it in as something else then they are the one being unethical
Edited:
 
Mouse_at_Large
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Larry S Larry S
This is a collectors forum so most of us here would not consider a re-dial. That said sometimes there is no alternative if dials are not available. Over the years some members have commissioned really good redials and some have had the likes of JLC, Patek, VC do factory restorations from original tooling that are spectacular.

With all due respect, this is not a exclusively a "collectors" forum. I would categorise it as a forum that caters to "collectors" (and how you would describe them as a group is a moot point) and is broad enough to allow for accumulators, casual buyers and even those who don't particularly care about the finer points of originality if it clashes with what they consider aesthetically pleasing. Personally I'd rather have a good redial/relume/restoration than some of the excessively patinated/damaged watches that others seem to prefer. But I don't insist that is the only valid viewpoint. This hobby and forum is (I hope) inclusive enough to cater for a variety of viewpoints and won't succumb to groupthink or unquestioned orthodoxy when it comes to the motivations of those who purchase vintage watches (apart from in the pursuance of fraud/deceit). After all, does the owner of a "Mad Men" Mumbai special derive any less pleasure from wearing it than the owner of an all original 68 Speedy?

I've no idea, and unless anyone here has extraordinary psychic powers, neither does any other member.
 
janice&fred
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Mouse_at_Large Mouse_at_Large
With all due respect, this is not a exclusively a "collectors" forum. I would categorise it as a forum that caters to "collectors" (and how you would describe them as a group is a moot point) and is broad enough to allow for accumulators, casual buyers and even those who don't particularly care about the finer points of originality if it clashes with what they consider aesthetically pleasing. Personally I'd rather have a good redial/relume/restoration than some of the excessively patinated/damaged watches that others seem to prefer. But I don't insist that is the only valid viewpoint. This hobby and forum is (I hope) inclusive enough to cater for a variety of viewpoints and won't succumb to groupthink or unquestioned orthodoxy when it comes to the motivations of those who purchase vintage watches (apart from in the pursuance of fraud/deceit). After all, does the owner of a "Mad Men" Mumbai special derive any less pleasure from wearing it than the owner of an all original 68 Speedy?

I've no idea, and unless anyone here has extraordinary psychic powers, neither does any other member.

I don't think Larry was forcing any orthodoxy with his reply. One could also safely call this a "collectors forum", and still include the casual watch wearer. He also did say "most of us here wouldn't consider a re-dial", not "none of us". I think the spirit of his reply was fine, as new watch enthusiasts need to know that in the general sense re-dials are usually the last resort.
 
Larry S
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janice&fred janice&fred
I don't think Larry was forcing any orthodoxy with his reply. One could also safely call this a "collectors forum", and still include the casual watch wearer. He also did say "most of us here wouldn't consider a re-dial", not "none of us". I think the spirit of his reply was fine, as new watch enthusiasts need to know that in the general sense re-dials are usually the last resort.
Thank you @janice&fred …No I was not imposing orthodoxy. PS…Avatar in 3D is amazing. Thats all I got right now. WTF?
 
SC1
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JwRosenthal JwRosenthal
This watch started life with a plain stainless bezel
47199AF0-5837-42C2-A759-048C7620E852.jpeg

Frankenawesome

Me i's be burnin'!
Omehamiltonga Lancastmaster.
 
Fallout Boy
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SC1 SC1
They exist for all facets of life:
Watches
Relationships
Marriages
Cars
Houses
Restaurants
Vacations

vaccination 😁
 
SC1
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Fallout Boy Fallout Boy
vaccination 😁

Vaccines haven't worked for polio, smallpox, rubella, measles, mumps, chickenpox, pertussis, tetanus, rabies-- is that what you're saying?

Bro, let's keep this fun without the politicizing -- plus, as a husband to a RN who was front-lining when the shit hit the fan, and no one knew or understood what was going on, it was some dark days with medical professionals doing the best they could with what they had for information.
Please don't push down this road with armchair quarterbacking in hindsight.
 
akshayluc420
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SC1 SC1
Me i's be burnin'!
Omehamiltonga Lancastmaster.
reminded me of
C1BYr_NW8AEoyhu.jpg
 
Aludic
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If intentions are punishable, I have to plea guilty too. 😁 Acquired this dial recently and will certainly use it to mod a Speedmaster some day. Just need to figure out what to do with the hands. White ones won’t fit too well.

B7DECC1D-BE3E-40B0-93B6-BF198E50A5C9.jpeg


Best option would be to find an ugly lume Speedy with damaged dial. Ditch the original dial, strip the hands and paint then black (no lume, matching the dial) and off we go.

I would like to think the result will be amazing. Nobody in his / her right mind would be at risk of thinking it’s factory original as it won’t look like anything but a very rare WG piece made in the 80s. No harm done, great fun. The more I think of it, the more I look forward to starting. 😎
 
akshayluc420
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Aludic Aludic
Best option would be to find an ugly lume Speedy with damaged dial. Ditch the original dial, strip the hands and paint then black (no lume, matching the dial) and off we go.

Why not use the hands from the Albino? Speedmaster Professional 3593.20
 
Archer
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sheepdoll sheepdoll
It is not uncommon to find marks under bridges from one watchmaker to another. Mostly on the older PW stuff.

"Marking" the watch as part of doing a service is considered to be very poor practice.
 
Morlock
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Great topic, usually not covered on the watch's fora. Even better are the opinion expressed on this threat. A true sign of the maturity on this forum and its members. Feels good to be here.
 
Aludic
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akshayluc420 akshayluc420
Why not use the hands from the Albino? Speedmaster Professional 3593.20

Thanks for the suggestion! That's certainly one of the options. That said, the hands of the Albino have lume, the dial I will be matching them with, does not. It's rather common practice to draw one line; with, or without lume. I'm leaning towards adhering to that and sourcing hands without lume. Being a vintage watch guy, I'm used to practically useless legibility in the dark anyway. 😁
 
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