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The Ethics of a FrankenWatch...

Aroxx
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Agreed 1000%...

as a musician and cyclist, neither group sweats alterations and customizations whatsoever.

In the watch world would I be correct in assuming it's that there is so much coin to be made in Fakes, Clones, Altering History for Profit -- and the simple fact that many Watch People are scared shitless to open their caseback and take a peak because it seems like uncharted & foreign territory?
To push the car analogy, no matter how much money I dump into a Honda Civic I’ll never be able to pass it off as a Ferrari. It’s too bad there is so much shady bullshit with people faking and deceiving with watches to make a buck. As everyone else has said, only unethical if one lies explicitly or by omission about what they’re selling. Otherwise, have fun and enjoy.
 
mancio
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Scarecrow Boat Scarecrow Boat
Indeed and makes me wish I had done it when I owned it. Reached out to TruDome hoping they made something and they responded they hadn’t but many owners of the 14060 had already asked the same thing.
Than I would expect that they will make one soon.
 
sheepdoll
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I thought we were going to call such watches fantasy watches.

I personally have no issue with frankens. Some of the AS 1187/94 I am playing with are such things. I think as long as the dial is not made to deceive, then what can go wrong.

(Oh wait they canceled Westworld and deleted it from streaming.)

Back when I was starting in the 1990s, I sent out a few dials for repainting. I even repainted a few myself. Now I sort of wished I had not done that.

Yet I also do want to continue that project. I even re-downloaded the program for making postscript fonts.

Downside is anything I offer for sale will be suspect. And rightly so.

On the other hand I have American cased watches. So movements and cases were sold separately. At least before the digital divide changed what a watch is. Technically according to the clubhouse 'springs' chat phones are really pocket watches ( with complications.) I mean the dials used to have the three minute markers after all for timing long distance calls. (or so the history books say.) And people of a certain age remember the comic strip detective 'Dick Tracy.'

I guess the other argument from Westworld (Spoken by the former and on and off again Mrs Elon Musk.) is "if you can not tell does it matter?"

The real question, is such watches, if properly cared for can last 500 or even 1000 years. So what then?

caveat emptor.
 
Braindrain
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Interesting topic.

When modern Wyler went bust during the last Great Recession, it seems an individual bought up all their inventory. Cased watches, parts, straps, etc.

I stumbled upon his ebay listings because I needed an OEM rubber strap, and kept him bookmarked.

Over time, as his inventory wound down, I noticed he'd sell cased watches that were never made. But it wasnt a one off. There were lots.

I voiced my displeasure over on another forum and he eventually found that and had a snarky reply that it was fully legit as it was made from Wyler parts.

Ummm..... yeah.....
 
JwRosenthal
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Braindrain Braindrain
Interesting topic.

When modern Wyler went bust during the last Great Recession, it seems an individual bought up all their inventory. Cased watches, parts, straps, etc.

I stumbled upon his ebay listings because I needed an OEM rubber strap, and kept him bookmarked.

Over time, as his inventory wound down, I noticed he'd sell cased watches that were never made. But it wasnt a one off. There were lots.

I voiced my displeasure over on another forum and he eventually found that and had a snarky reply that it was fully legit as it was made from Wyler parts.

Ummm..... yeah.....
I think I’ve seen some of the listings you are talking about. That’s just some shady shit.
 
mehqwatches
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Braindrain Braindrain
Interesting topic.

When modern Wyler went bust during the last Great Recession, it seems an individual bought up all their inventory. Cased watches, parts, straps, etc.

I stumbled upon his ebay listings because I needed an OEM rubber strap, and kept him bookmarked.

Over time, as his inventory wound down, I noticed he'd sell cased watches that were never made. But it wasnt a one off. There were lots.

I voiced my displeasure over on another forum and he eventually found that and had a snarky reply that it was fully legit as it was made from Wyler parts.

Ummm..... yeah.....

This! You have to be so careful calling things “authentic” and “legit” or I’ve even seen “original”. Even if the parts are from the manufacturer I think it’s good form to mention that they were not originally sold on that particular piece. Just my opinion and to be 100% transparent, other than that I see no problem with it!
 
Larry S
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Soooooooo recently over on the Rolex sub, we had a bit of a dust up over a White Gold Daytona franken that was flogged by watch industry royalty who should know better…so caveat emptor….and yes NOOB taxes can be paid no mattter how rich you are.
 
JwRosenthal
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mehqwatches mehqwatches
Enlighten me… NOOB taxes?
When we are new in the hobby and jump impulsively on a watch without doing the research and buying either a money pit or a flat out fake or cobbled watch. Many of us have done it- sometimes it’s not even about being new to the hobby, just new to a brand after years of being into others and we don’t know the details to look for yet.
 
SC1
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mehqwatches mehqwatches
Enlighten me… NOOB taxes?

They exist for all facets of life:
Watches
Relationships
Marriages
Cars
Houses
Restaurants
Vacations

A "gone sideways" experience is basically a Noob Tax.
Unavoidable but definitely don't have to be repeatable if one learns.
 
johnireland
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As long as you are totally honest about what you do, it is your watch to do whatever you want with. It is all about looking at our wrist and smiling. Have fun.
 
Syzygy
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mehqwatches mehqwatches
Enlighten me… NOOB taxes?
NOOB = Newbie, someone new to a complicated situation.
TAX = Money dished out for something

Combined = cash dished out for shit you know nothing about

I've been there, we likely all have...and if someone says they haven't, I'll put them on the stand and go 'court room' on their ass, because they are absolutely lying, or delusional.

Patience. Advice I wish I had heeded when I hopped in to this adventure.

Patience....I still find it difficult
 
Bernhard J
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I am currently considering a Harwood that has a "redone" dial. Absolutely horrible, believe me. I consider purchasing an original Harwood dial (with some patina, but not "redone" to any extent.

Would it be "unethical" to combine both, resulting in a watch looking nice? This watch did not leave the factory with that dial, it clearly would be a "redial".

This case would be insofar clear in that I did the redial myself and need to disclose it upon sale.

I might generally mention that I personally do not mind redials all to much and prefer a redial with a decent looking dial over an original having a grubby dial. Simply for optical reasons and because if I wear it, I look at it frequently and do not want to think *bläh* every time I look. It is clear that the value of a redial must be lower than an original with just as decent original dial.

What do think how a ranking in value shold be in the cases original but grubby/awful dial vs. redial with a decent dial? I personally would pass on the original and take the redial instead. And perhaps be happy about the nicer (?) price.

Cheers, Bernhard
 
janice&fred
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if one were to build/create a FrankenWatch strictly for their own satisfaction - say to scratch the itch of the Impossible* - and never release it into the wild -- True/False, there would be zero ethical issues with having done so?

Ethical issues? Looking at you, how could anyone question your ethics? 😁

20230104_013843-01.jpeg R.png
 
Larry S
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Bernhard J Bernhard J
I am currently considering a Harwood that has a "redone" dial. Absolutely horrible, believe me. I consider purchasing an original Harwood dial (with some patina, but not "redone" to any extent.

Would it be "unethical" to combine both, resulting in a watch looking nice? This watch did not leave the factory with that dial, it clearly would be a "redial".

This case would be insofar clear in that I did the redial myself and need to disclose it upon sale.

I might generally mention that I personally do not mind redials all to much and prefer a redial with a decent looking dial over an original having a grubby dial. Simply for optical reasons and because if I wear it, I look at it frequently and do not want to think *bläh* every time I look. It is clear that the value of a redial must be lower than an original with just as decent original dial.

What do think how a ranking in value shold be in the cases original but grubby/awful dial vs. redial with a decent dial? I personally would pass on the original and take the redial instead. And perhaps be happy about the nicer (?) price.

Cheers, Bernhard
This is a collectors forum so most of us here would not consider a re-dial. That said sometimes there is no alternative if dials are not available. Over the years some members have commissioned really good redials and some have had the likes of JLC, Patek, VC do factory restorations from original tooling that are spectacular.
 
Bernhard J
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Larry S Larry S
This is a collectors forum so most of us here would not consider a re-dial. That said sometimes there is no alternative if dials are not available. Over the years some members have commissioned really good redials and some have had the likes of JLC, Patek, VC do factory restorations from original tooling that are spectacular.

So, sometimes a redial is OK and sometimes not? What is the criterium? If a dial "is available", then it is a redial also, because the original dial has been replaced by another dial (even if the other dial is identical in appearance). Or do I get the phrase "redial" wrong?

Cheers, Bernhard
 
Larry S
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Bernhard J Bernhard J
So, sometimes a redial is OK and sometimes not? What is the criterium? If a dial "is available", then it is a redial also, because the original dial has been replaced by another dial (even if the other dial is identical in appearance). Or do I get the phrase "redial" wrong?

Cheers, Bernhard
Great question! Bunny hole warning! So I’m going to keep it simple. Best: You find a dial for the reference and serial number range in the market place, then no one needs to know. Thats not technically a re-dial. Re-dials are re-painted. I would say that a well done dial, at great cost BTW, from one of the houses I mentioned, carries less of a stigma, and price penalty, if properly disclosed. If you have a great watch that will go for parts if a dial cannot be found and you want to keep searching, a good redialer can keep it on your wrist until you find that needle in the haystack. In any case, a repainted dial carries a significant price penalty.
Edited:
 
Bernhard J
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OK, understood. The "price penalty" of a redial (well made at least) on the other hand can make a watch interesting for those who find some asking prices of "genuine" watches in the wrist watch field excessive, in particular if the original dial is less than perfect (that is most often the case).

On the other hand I wonder whether there indeed are wrist watches with an age of 60+, which have an original dial in perfect condition. I would assume that this occurs perhaps in 1 of 1000? I would tend to assume in most cases of such perfect watches a redial, in particular if the case is, in contrast, not in nos condition. Would that be overcautious?

But I understand the "dogma" somehow. Mainly focussed on pocket watches, if a watch (pocket or wrist) with an enamel dial shows e.g. hairlines, no matter how faint, I instantly pass. At whatever price. The same probably applies with "true collectors" of wristwatches in case of a redial.

So, I will presumably remain being an "amateur collector" of wristwatches, if at all, because I rule out only the very obvious (= bad made) redials. 😁.

Cheers, Bernhard
 
gatorcpa
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Bernhard J Bernhard J
I am currently considering a Harwood that has a "redone" dial. Absolutely horrible, believe me. I consider purchasing an original Harwood dial (with some patina, but not "redone" to any extent.

Would it be "unethical" to combine both, resulting in a watch looking nice? This watch did not leave the factory with that dial, it clearly would be a "redial".
Not a “re-dial” in my opinion. This would fall in the same class of a service dial. Something that was made by the original manufacturer, intended to replace a worn out part, but is not the original part.

You could sell the watch with a designation of a correct replacement dial. Same would be true of a redial. Your conscience should be clear.

The issue in collector world is not about what you did. It is about what the next owner, or the owners after that would do.

We see this now and again with so-called WatchCo Seamaster 300’s. These are watches that were put together with OEM parts by an Omega parts supplier in Australia. Again, I have no problems with such a piece so long as disclosed, but since many are now in their 3rd or greater owner, their origins might be totally forgotten and advertised as “all original” when clearly they are not.

Not sure what we can or should do about this, but the issue is not going away.
gatorcpa
 
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