Let’s define avoidance as the legitimate nonpayment of fees, and evasion as the illegal evasion of fees.

I am confining myself to what I feel is morally correct, not what is legally binding in lengthy user agreements that I expect perhaps only one us has read. If that.

We have all seen the private sales forum where many, including myself, have asked for a Friends and family PayPal payment, or asking for a 4% surcharge. As far as I know a PayPal commercial sale, (and the 4% charge) offers protection to both parties. Having dealt with PayPal a couple of times, I don’t expect much help in the event of a problem. So I do not think I am getting anything if I give them 4% - especially in a non-eBay sale. I prefer now to do my own due diligence and carry my own risk.

So if I ask for a 4% surcharge on the sale price, which I think is against the PayPal agreement that I agreed to, I am breaking my agreement. However I am not expecting PayPal to provide a service in the case of any sale on OF – so I consider the avoidance of these fees fair.

I could argue that OF, which is a semi closed community, of “friends”, is just that. Friends. So by sending a F&F payment I am not in breach of the rules. After all, my sale is not a commercial one, I make no living from selling watches. So for me it is avoidance, not evasion.

I think it fits my ethics to sell or buy a watch on OF via a F&F PayPal payment – but I do not state a 4% discount, I just ask the buyer or offer the seller. Thus it becomes an avoidance of a fee for a service I do not want.

Now let’s talk about everyone’s favorite - eBay.

EBay gets a bad rap. Of all the public auctions, eBay is the cheapest and most widely seen watch market – second to none. The protection it offers buyers exisits, but seems to decrease as the value rises, and quite hard to invoke. It also seems to favour buyers. Unlike Bricks and Mortar auctions it offers little safely for higher value items. For the money it charges in fees, the exposure is enormous. For the buyers, the choice is encyclopedic.

If I put an article up on eBay for sale, I am contracting with them to find me a buyer, and in return pay them a fee. If I put up an auction and end it early, outside of eBay, that is in my opinion evasion, and morally wrong IF EBay introduced me to the buyer. They did a job, I should pay them.

Putting up a BIN sale, and then concluding the sale outside of Ebay (by putting in a phone number for example) is slightly blurred. Ebay has found me the buyer, but is not going to protect me, or them, nor transmit funds. I think it is still outside of my agreement, and wrong – but I have much more sympathy for people who do it as ebay does receive an insertion fee – and for that they are showing the item, nothing else. No protection, no buyer diligence, nothing. It is a glorified craiglisting. So perhaps that is acceptable.

Ending auctions early is another morally questionable subject, as it takes advantage of the trusting types who save their bid to the end. I have never, ever been offered more to end an auction early than the item eventually achieved. So in a way the seller gets their just deserts.

So Three points:

Is it morally correct to surcharge people to cover PayPal charges?

Is it morally correct to sell to an eBay buyer an eBay item outside of eBay to evade fees?

Is it morally correct to end an auction early?

 

Not going to edit this post...wanted to let everyone know that I respect the members of this forum so much, that I am no longer going to skirt any ebay fees from this point forward. This forum has changed the way I collect, and has enabled me to make many new friends all over the world. To continue a practice that is so strongly frowned upon by senior members would be a slap in the face to many members whose advice and knowledge I treasure.

Thanks for collectively enabling me to pull me head out of my ass.

Seeing that I just had a post in which I explained my approach to selling on ebay, I will give it a crack.

I pay ebay a ton of fees each year for all of the crap that I sell. I also pay PP a ton of fees for all of the crap that I sell. Now that ebay and PP are separate entities, the lines are a bit blurred.

Personally I feel that ebay is a fat hog with the way in which they charge obscene fees and favor the buyer with protection.

They have tried classified ads in the past on high dollar items like boats and cars, but it never really went anywhere.

If they were smart, they would take their platform, and allow for established sellers to trade with a new set of rules, payment options, and fees.

Until they do that, I will continue to operate in the grey zone of quasi shadiness, still paying them a ton of fees, and still selling quality watches to happy buyers all over the world.

As far as ending an auction early, I personally don't like it, but I know that if I don't ask, someone else will, and I am not going to take the risk.

I never do auctions, all of mine are BIN OBO, so I never have the question of whether or not to end an auction early.

To be honest, I sell very few pieces outside of ebay...only 2 watches in the last year.

 

Avoiding set fees that you agreed to for using the service is wrong. PERIOD. If you try to scam your way around them against the set rules, then you are absolutely EVADING the fees illegally. Don't try to justify it with excuses and your "ethics". Frankly, I don't think you have many ethics if you're justifying sidestepping the costs to use the service.

As far as ending the auction early for a good offer, that's the free market for you. If eBay was used as the sales platform, there should be payment to eBay for that use.

There is NO grey area at all. NONE. Use the service, pay the fee. End of discussion.

 

You guys are right, I am not going to do it anymore on my watches. I have changed my auction listings. Now, if someone sees it on ebay, and puts 1+1 together and contacts me through the forums, that is a different story.

I have seen the light!

 

I'm not a big seller, as most of the watches I own I still enjoy and plan to keep - but of course plans change, and I've had to sell a few watches in the past. I prefer forum sales when I do have something to sell, and my preference is to include the 3% PayPal fee in my asking price. I think it's worth it as it's a very easy way to exchange funds - bank transfers are be a hassle, don't even have a promise of protectoin for either buyer OR seller, and for foreign transactions can often carry fees higher than PayPal's, depending on the value of the item.

As for eBay - charging both a non-refundable listing fee (+ more fees for more photos etc) and then going on to charge a 10% final value fee, is in my opinion a bit much. Sure, if you have an item that you'd like to auction, pay the fee - but if you choose to end the auction early to save that fee, I don't think I'd consider that wrong. After all, you've still paid eBay for the referral to the buyer in that case.

My opinion is formed by my experiences - here's a story: When I first had to sell a watch, I wasn't as experienced a forum member anywhere, so I turned to eBay. I listed it as an auction, with a BIN just slightly optimistic compared to market value at the time. Immediately, scammers pounced - buying my listing, then sending phony PayPal payment emails. I wasn't born yesterday, and knew better than to ship out - but as soon as I relisted, it happened again. It happened 3 or 4 times, and while each time eBay refunded the 10% commission, they kept the listing fees - quite high for BINs as it happens!

So, I think this: Either charge me for a referral, or charge me for a commission - but if I can avoid one of the two, then I will.

 

That's one way to do it.

Just did one with a forum member for $950. Received $930 after the bank on his end took their fee, and ended up paying $18 on my end. The $912 was just like getting hit with a 4% fee - which sounds familiar, eh? And that was only because it was an international transfer. In the end, a wire transfer can SAVE you money if the seller and buyer are trustworthy.

 

You're absolutely right, which is why I said it could be the same depending on item value. Though it applies to buying as well - I once tried to buy an 85 EUR watch strap via bank transfer; the fee was $60! Once you get to $1k or so, it evens out; above that it certainly is less expensive.

I'm sure if / once I get used to selling watches more often, I'll change my opinion - I agree with you re. customer agreements and fees in general, but I think if the platform is taking bites out of your profit at both ends, a bit of fee avoidance isn't the worst thing ever.

 

I believe it is ok to give a 4% discount in sales paid by wire or cash.

 

Maybe I'm a little more strident about this than most, but even when a retailer offers to ship a product to Delaware (where there's no sales tax and I have an address) to "save" me the NJ sales tax, I refuse and pay the 7%.

 

I see no problem with discounting for bank wire. The buyer is giving up some of the protections of PayPal in exchange for a lower price and expedited payment. The seller is not enjoying any benefits of PayPal service so is not "avoiding" any fees. I don't think it's much different from the many business I see (dry cleaners, gas stations, liquor stores) that give a discount for cash payment.

 

Taxes, you and I are not at all disagreeing on - they pay for important things. Shipping to another state, however close by, is a bit ridiculous, too

 

Dont forget its a "Sales AND USE" tax !

So if an item is used in state, it must be tax paid.

 

If I sell on a forum then I state that my asking price, or any negotiated price is net to me. I will pretty much insist on a bank transfer from a newb and with an established member my first choice is also bank transfer, but I will also accept Paypal. But any price agreed will remain net to me.

Regarding the rights and wrongs of avoiding Ebay's and Paypal's commission I will only add that this company is a typical multinational that will use any and all accounting techniques, shell companies, off shore trusts and subsidiaries to avoid paying its rightful corporation taxes around the world.

As the old saying goes," If you can't beat them......"

 

Using Paypal, after a high number of F&F transactions they will catch on, and will further preclude you from using that feature. At least with the full bill of sale you have the option of going after the money through paypal. I am a little nervous because so many times it is a posters first time in the boards and they have no history and so it is still a risk on something that is several thousand dollars.

 

I recently bought a watch from a trusted dealer on ebay (another story for another time). I ended up paying by wire transfer, and he cut the price of the auction...and included shipping!

Then again, this seller has a sterling reputation internationally, and I felt comfortable with him, so I was not worried about the PP protection. Interestingly enough, BOA has three options for wire transfer: 1) instant that is $30 2) $10 for next business day and 3) $3 for 2 business days.

It was a no brainer, and I used the 2 day option, and for future sales where I am comfortable with the seller/buyer, I will suggest this option.

Interestingly enough, it seems that with all of the fees, etc., now a lot of collectors are going old school in a way. I remember back in the 1998-2001 time frame buying watches on the forums and ebay, and overnighting cashiers checks all over God's creation, and miraculously receiving watches a few days later.

The whole system worked so well...and then the market blew up and scammers popped up.

Gunbroker in the US is still old school, I bought a Perazzi MX8, and send the seller $4,250 worth of USPS Money Orders--that is the way that everyone on Gunbroker does it, since you cannot use PP. Of course, I could have paid with a wire transfer, but the seller wanted a MO because it could not be faked. It is an interesting "unspoken" rule among most sellers/buyers.

 

It's not your job to police them, and you're using justification to "beat" them. So two wrongs make a right in your world?

If you joined Paypal and/or eBay, you checked the box stating that you've read and agreed to their terms and conditions. You did not agree to their terms unless it's inconvenient or costly for you. If you don't like their terms and conditions, don't use their service.

All the rest of this thread is a bunch of .

 

Correct.

And all you fee avoiders are costing those of us who pay extra. If everyone paid their share, the fee might actually be lowered.

 

Yup, when it comes to multinationals avoiding all the taxes that I pay, then I don't have an issue or problem with playing a similar game if the opportunity arises.