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swedish ? mil OMEGA from 1940 ?
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hejsam
·Looks like a Omega officer case which was issued to the Swedish military.
Dial repainted and crown wrong, and they are rather 30.5/31mm
Dial repainted and crown wrong, and they are rather 30.5/31mm
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Fallout Boy
·Yeah, crown was suspicious (but nice ;-) )
How did you identify the redial so quickly? The dark black colour (is it always matte?) ? The print? The lume-dots?
How did you identify the redial so quickly? The dark black colour (is it always matte?) ? The print? The lume-dots?
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hejsam
·Yeah, crown was suspicious (but nice ;-) )
How did you identify the redial so quickly? The dark black colour (is it always matte?) ? The print? The lume-dots?
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bubba48
·My Officer for comparision
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Fallout Boy
·beautiful! Does the crow has a logo?
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hejsam
·beautiful! Does the crow has a logo?
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Fallout Boy
·That s what I wanted to know 👍 Thx
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hejsam
·The early 1940s? You sure about that? Might be the case for this model but I'm not convinced that's the case across the board.
Centenary and Seamasters that both was introduced 1948 (?) did have signed crown but earlier models than those I'm not sure.
In the case of Omega Officer and Suverän, I'm 100% sure the did not have signed crowns at least 😀
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bubba48
·Yes my understanding is that all Omegas in the early 40s did not have signed crowns, they started to use signed crowns mid to late 40s.
Centenary and Seamasters that both was introduced 1948 (?) did have signed crown but earlier models than those I'm not sure.
In the case of Omega Officer and Suverän, I'm 100% sure the did not have signed crowns at least 😀
Agree 👍
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TexOmega
·Yes my understanding is that all Omegas in the early 40s did not have signed crowns, they started to use signed crowns mid to late 40s.
Centenary and Seamasters that both was introduced 1948 (?) did have signed crown but earlier models than those I'm not sure.
In the case of Omega Officer and Suverän, I'm 100% sure the did not have signed crowns at least 😀
At least one reference had a signed crown.
Mine from 1939-40
R-17.8 SC early run with nickel finish 9.7M serial
Edited:
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Syrte
·Why issued? I don’t see any issue marks.
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hejsam
·Why issued? I don’t see any issue marks.
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hejsam
·At least one reference had a signed crown.
Mine from 1939-40
R-17.8 SC early run with nickel finish 9.7M serial
Do you have an extract? (The exact year is interesting since it would be nice to know when Omega actually started signing their crowns and this would be a step closer)
Regarding the crown thanks for the information, it was new to me they signed their crowns so early. Do you know for sure the crown is original? And do you have any source or adverts that confirms that? 😀
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Pvt-Public
·My 2367-4 serial #in the 10.5M range has a "no logo" crown
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Syrte
·Correct - and it says “a watch that the government could sell through watchmakers to the public”
“Many think that Suverän was military watch but it was civilian model.”
That means non issued = civilian = non military.
An issued watch is a watch that’s not sold, but that the government attributes to certain members of its armed forces for purposes of fulfilling their missions.
In the modern era and starting in the late 1930s, issued watches have case back markings which are known and recorded, and from which one can identify the country it belongs to, which branch of the military has issued it, and issue serial numbers which may or may not indicate the year. Also it may include certain specifications or contract numbers.
The watches below - all mine or were— are examples of various issue marks, some more detailed than others.
-The top watch is a US air force specification A17 from 1956-
-the second watch is a British Air Ministry (ie Royal Air force) watch from 1942, therefore marked “AM” 6B/159 (which was the chronometer contract specifications for those pilot watches), with the 1942 serial number.
The last one is a Le Coultre Weems A11 from 1940
Which is the US Army Air Corps contract specification for pilot watches. At one point the US Army Air Corps becomes the US Air Force and the markings change, also the A11 specs evolve and provide for a black dial which is why the D-day pilot watches are black.
For more on all that, you will find tons of info on MWR (the Military Watch Ressource forum) - but in short, the above is not issued or military.
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hejsam
·Correct - and it says “a watch that the government could sell through watchmakers to the public”
“Many think that Suverän was military watch but it was civilian model.”
That means non issued = civilian = non military.
An issued watch is a watch that’s not sold, but that the government attributes to certain members of its armed forces for purposes of fulfilling their missions.
In the modern era and starting in the late 1930s, issued watches have case back markings which are known and recorded, and from which one can identify the country it belongs to, which branch of the military has issued it, and issue serial numbers which may or may not indicate the year. Also it may include certain specifications or contract numbers.
The watches below - all mine or were— are examples of various issue marks, some more detailed than others.
-The top watch is a US air force specification A17 from 1956-
-the second watch is a British Air Ministry (ie Royal Air force) watch from 1942, therefore marked “AM” 6B/159 (which was the chronometer contract specifications for those pilot watches), with the 1942 serial number.
The last one is a Le Coultre Weems A11 from 1940
Which is the US Army Air Corps contract specification for pilot watches. At one point the US Army Air Corps becomes the US Air Force and the markings change, also the A11 specs evolve and provide for a black dial which is why the D-day pilot watches are black.
For more on all that, you will find tons of info on MWR (the Military Watch Ressource forum) - but in short, the above is not issued or military.
@tdn-dk says
"Sweden was neutral during the WW2. The Swedish army made an agreement with Omega to provide a watch made for the Swedish army in large numbers, it's called Omega Officer, from 1940 it was ref. 2165 with at caliber 26.5 T2 and from 1942 ref. 2299 with a caliber 26.5 T3."
Maybe the word issued is wrongly used and I dont have much knowledge of the Officer models history, but if its true as @tdn-dk says - was made for the Swedish army and not sold to civilians they sure are military watches?
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Syrte
·So you’re right I read a bit too fast,
@bubba48 may have done more research and I surely don’t know enough about those models.
However, if you have advertisements created for a watch, it means it is marketed to civilians. Armies don’t need advertisements, they use public procurement contracts.
Also quite strange and not logical for a military watch to have a commercial name on its face.
So it’s clear this watch was also marketed to a civilian market.
So unless someone has seen the contract, and published documents, what appears to have happened- and I’m purely speculating— is that the Swedish government may have asked Omega to produce a watch for its military, but the numbers were too small to make it profitable for Omega so the deal allowed the watch to also be marketed to civilians as the one made for the Swedish military.
At the very least you will note that on some pictures of the “officer” watch in the thread you linked, some of them have an additional number stamped on the case back - others don’t.
One might speculate the stamped number was added by be the government upon issuing some of those watches -and perhaps the neutrality of Sweden may explain some of the unusual aspects of this process.
However and for non stamped case backs, I would still consider them non issued. Happy to be proven wrong by someone who’s got a documentary record.
Going back to the OP watch, it is a real Omega but a faked military watch.
the dial has been refinished as an imitation of the dial design on two famous models of ***British*** Omega military watches, one is the Omega WWW from WW2 (army), the other is the Omega 53, which is a central seconds pilot watch from 1953 made for the RAF.
Google those and you will see.
@bubba48 may have done more research and I surely don’t know enough about those models.
However, if you have advertisements created for a watch, it means it is marketed to civilians. Armies don’t need advertisements, they use public procurement contracts.
Also quite strange and not logical for a military watch to have a commercial name on its face.
So it’s clear this watch was also marketed to a civilian market.
So unless someone has seen the contract, and published documents, what appears to have happened- and I’m purely speculating— is that the Swedish government may have asked Omega to produce a watch for its military, but the numbers were too small to make it profitable for Omega so the deal allowed the watch to also be marketed to civilians as the one made for the Swedish military.
At the very least you will note that on some pictures of the “officer” watch in the thread you linked, some of them have an additional number stamped on the case back - others don’t.
One might speculate the stamped number was added by be the government upon issuing some of those watches -and perhaps the neutrality of Sweden may explain some of the unusual aspects of this process.
However and for non stamped case backs, I would still consider them non issued. Happy to be proven wrong by someone who’s got a documentary record.
Going back to the OP watch, it is a real Omega but a faked military watch.
the dial has been refinished as an imitation of the dial design on two famous models of ***British*** Omega military watches, one is the Omega WWW from WW2 (army), the other is the Omega 53, which is a central seconds pilot watch from 1953 made for the RAF.
Google those and you will see.
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bubba48
·
A rough translation from Swedish
------------------------------------------------------
“In the service of the crown"
Officer & Suverän
Officer model
Although Sweden declared itself neutral, during the Second World War the Army wanted to ensure that its officers could measure time effectively and therefore ordered a large number of customized watches that Omega called Officers. The case back was engraved in Swedish with Antimagnetic-Water resistant-Shockproof.
A civilian variant of these watches was called Suveran and sold to the public directly by the Swedish state. Anyone who wanted to support his government in a period of profound crisis could therefore do so by buying a Suveran and showing off their patriotism on their wrist. An initiative, but much more expensive, similar to that of colored rubber bracelets which, in the early years of this century, were connected to forms of charity.”.
