SpeedyMoon 345.0809 assessment?

Hi OF, I've recently started toying with the notion of a SpeedyMoon, so I'm looking for some basic sanity checks. Other than the actual moon disk not being pictured in this example, is this bezel service or fake? Are the hands service? Any other warning signs?

Hands are definitely service hands — they are luminova, not tritium. Don’t know about the bezel, but considering the replaced hands it probably is a service one. That wouldn’t bother me as much as the hands, though.

Yeah that's what I figured. But tritum hands shouldn't be hard to find. Does anyone have any opinions on the bezel, or the rest of the watch?

Avoid Closer Japan, which is where your pic came from. They are legit but their inventory is always bottom-of-the-barrel and are usually in horrible condition in need of immediate service.

Good to know, thanks for that info! Are you referring to the 1498 Speedmaster bracelet you got from them, or other watches as well?

After a quick search of the forums, it seems that people have had fine dealings with them, all things considered. What do you think in this case @kaplan @krogerfoot @gmmy775 @SOG53 @Boojumhunter @nkhandekar @Aroxx?

I generally assume most vintage watches are in need of a movement service, so is there anything in particular with this example that would turn you away? Given the relative rarity of this reference, I could live with a service handset/bezel, which can be replaced relatively easily. The dial looks clean (too clean?). The movement looks clean and in the correct serial range. The case doesn't appear (overly) polished. Am I missing something?

For comparison, these are two other comparable examples currently for sale online (of which there aren't many). The first is from a private seller for the SAME price as the Closer one, but it would need a full relume of the dial and hands, not to mention perhaps a new crystal (crack), bezel (dent), and bracelet (1479). The second is from TamboWatches for 24% more but also has a service handset AND caseback.

So the options I'm considering are to try to get a deal from Closer or the private seller, or keep waiting (but this is a rare reference, and I don't mind a bit of a fixer upper). Thoughts?

As I usually say about Closer, they have a big selection of shrewdly priced items. Their offerings include a lot of watches that are most likely best avoided but they tend to be honestly presented and accurately described, I think. If they’re selling a watch cheaply there’s usually a reason for it.

I’ve often had the experience you describe—searching for a particular watch in Japan brings up a lot of Closer’s inventory, which is priced quite a bit better than watches in similar condition from other sellers, and a few watches in better condition but way overpriced from established dealers. If you’re budgeting a service and possibly replacing the hands into your purchase and think Closer’s watch is the best deal you’ve found, I’d see no problem with buying from them.

Interesting, thank you for the additional input! I think my only other concern is to what degree it has been polished. It's hard to tell in their photos since they seem to be a bit washed out. And/or perhaps they use a polishing cloth? Many of their photos/watches appear similar in that regard. Can anyone who has purchased from Closer attest to what extent they tend to polish their watches?

I guess that and the bezel: while on one hand it appears correct (B2 with no accent, stretched "C", shorter middle "E" stroke, "7" with serif"), many of the dots appear to blur into the numbers; is that a known issue with service and or fake bezels, or might that just be a photograph resolution artifact?

Do any previous Speedymoon owners have any thoughts? @KRLYUZH @lanierdams @speedmaster971

Krlyuzh won’t be of much help as they were banned 8 years ago, and Lanierdams last logged in back in 2015.

There is variation in the crispness of bezel printing, particularly before the 1990s but this one is too blurry for me. Whether legit or otherwise, it doesn't look great. 80, 85, 140, 150 are very poor. Compare the private seller examples you found from the same era, much better.

I see. So the lack of crispness could still be a poor legit example, or a fake, but these photos aren't sufficient to tell you one way or the other? I suppose with a DON bezel, this would be quite a risk, but if I am ok sourcing a better/crisper period-correct DNN bezel, this doesn't seem like too much of a risk with this watch, does it?

Do people generally care about / try to restore the small seconds/chrono hands as well?

So I got the watch today, and I think it's in better condition than it looked...

1. Hands. While I originally thought the hands looked like obvious superluminova replacements, under the loupe, they appear aged. Perhaps more importantly, they appear to fade in the dark at the same rate as the dial, which makes me think they are actually tritium. The color does still look a little paler than the dial, so could they just have patina'd differently (as happens on the 90s era Seamaster 300s)? Or perhaps they are a tritium set from a different original watch? (For what it's worth, the seller did assert the originality of all components of the watch). What do you think?

2. Case/polishing. Sometimes photos from this seller (Closer) appear to indicate mild-to-moderate polishing, but under the loupe, while there are certainly many very small dings, the case edges still appear quite sharp, so would you agree that it appears to have little-to-no polishing?

3. Crown/pushers. Since I originally thought the hands were replacements, I assumed the crown/pushers were too, but under the loupe, they appear appropriately aged, so I think they could be original; thoughts?

3. Bezel. I was also unsure of the originality/authenticity of the bezel, and here I am still unsure. My original concern was how some of the dots appeared to smash into the numbers, particularly the 110-150 markers, and to a lesser extent, the 65-90 markers. Is this a known issue on any bezel, type B2 or otherwise, or for original, service, or fake bezels? What is your assessment of this bezel?

4. Movement. To my relatively untrained eye, the movement looks ok? (With an appropriately ranged serial number). I assume it is signed 866 (the correct caliber), even though at first I thought it might have said 855. And I've seen the "Unadjusted" on some 861s but not on others, why do some movements have this engraving?

5. Operation. Here's the potential rub. At first everything seemed to wind and set appropriately, including the hour/minute/second hand, chronograph hands, date, and moonphase. And while there was some beat error (1.6ms, but I've seen worse), the rate was pretty good (-1-2 sec/day). But I did notice that the crown didn't stop winding around 40-50 turns like my 1861 and 321 do. Then a couple hours later, I picked it back up and gave it another few winds, and I noticed at this point that it had stopped running. So what could have happened? Could I really have snapped the mainspring? I am quite familiar with how attempting to wind a fully wound crown feels, and I never felt ANY tension of this sort while winding this one. But why else would it have stopped working? And why would it not stop winding in the first place but have been running fine initially? Could it have already been broken but still run fine at first?

I generally assume that any vintage watch with an unknown service history may need a complete service, so even if that's the case here, the price I paid more than makes up for it. But I was sort of getting used to pleasant surprises (including the condition of the dial and 1450 bracelet, which both appear excellent), and I was thinking at first that it wouldn't even need a service, at least not right away. Curious to hear anyone's thoughts!

Edit: per this thread, I guess it's possible for it to appear to run normally even with a broken mainspring? @Archer https://omegaforums.net/threads/how-to-know-if-cal-861-main-spring-is-broken.88464/

Congratulations on succeeding in your quest!

Nice looking watch. All of your questions and concerns about operation will be addressed with a service.
Regarding polishing, the closeup photos of the lugs show evidence of polishing on your watch, particularly the glossy sides above the laterally brushed side- you can see that small dings and scratches have been polished but not removed.
With unpolished case you should be able to see little dings and scratches from normal wear along with sharp caselines. here are some examples of unpolished cases and if you magnify you can see dings and scratches and sharp caselines- some of Omegas and 1 Grand Seiko.
Yours is not terribly polished but there is some. Still looks nice I wouldnt worry about that.

Soft edges of dings and scratches are signs of polishing

Ah yeah that makes sense now. Any thoughts on the hands or bezel?

if hands fade like dial plots then must be tritium, original or swapped hard to say.
I havent seen enough of these bezels to help- but I must say that the bezel and hands look very much like the photo of Speedy Moon in MWO page 361- so I would say that you have a very nice example looks original to me! Bracelet looks original too.
Enjoy and congrats

Oops, sorry for the misdirection on the bracelet...the one pictured in my first post from today is actually an Uncle Seiko! Here is the legit 1450 that came with the watch (but interestingly, with 809 end links).