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hansaboy
·Once again - a well needed update from our dear @Spacefruit !!
https://speedmaster101.com/price-chart-2/
Thanks!!
https://speedmaster101.com/price-chart-2/
Thanks!!
Speedmaster101 price chart update (NOV 23)
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hansaboy
·Might as well post a screenshot?
Always nice to go back and compare after a year or two...😀
Always nice to go back and compare after a year or two...😀
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Risto
·Thanks!
Still looking for those "fair 2k" 70s Speedmasters!! Where are they? 😀
Still looking for those "fair 2k" 70s Speedmasters!! Where are they? 😀
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itsjustausername
·Good to see some of these returning to “hmmm I could actually consider that” territory. Seems like there’s no shortage of hopefully-advertised inventory out there though 😎
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kaplan
·His writing style is slightly confusing though, it was like reading something I wrote myself 😁
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Spacefruit
··Prolific Speedmaster Hoarder
This is a very good point.
It is what I value them when offered.
If I pay $2000 for a "FAIR" 74 with a no step dial, its going to cost perhaps 500-800 to bring up to standard.
Then, if the grade was based on a damaged dial and bezel, and worn case, we end up with a less desired reference, in a less desirable condition, with an all in cost of around $3000. Still sounds cheap - until you see the scar on the dial, or bezel, and then try to shift them on.
For example, how would you value this?
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machamp6650
·For example, how would you value this?
Umm, dibs?
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Risto
·This is a very good point.
It is what I value them when offered.
If I pay $2000 for a "FAIR" 74 with a no step dial, its going to cost perhaps 500-800 to bring up to standard.
Then, if the grade was based on a damaged dial and bezel, and worn case, we end up with a less desired reference, in a less desirable condition, with an all in cost of around $3000. Still sounds cheap - until you see the scar on the dial, or bezel, and then try to shift them on.
For example, how would you value this?
Good example. This for me would be "poor". Would I buy it... for 2k - No.
If this would be for sale as parts, I'd take the case.
Although it has a nice case, it comes with a bad dial that is just not salvageable. I can live with the lume issues, but I don't like when there's damage around subregisters, that greenish outlined edge. Who knows what's going on inside... might be ok, still needs full service.
So, new (used) hands + DNN used bezel + crystal + service... 3,5k watch.
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Spacefruit
··Prolific Speedmaster HoarderGood example. This for me would be "poor". Would I buy it... for 2k - No.
If this would be for sale as parts, I'd take the case.
Although it has a nice case, it comes with a bad dial that is just not salvageable. I can live with the lume issues, but I don't like when there's damage around subregisters, that greenish outlined edge. Who knows what's going on inside... might be ok, still needs full service.
So, new (used) hands + DNN used bezel + crystal + service... 3,5k watch.
... and you still might not end up with a watch you want to live with...
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Risto
·... and you still might not end up with a watch you want to live with...
Correct. What I am looking for is wear and tear but originality. But, I guess those are perhaps not considered as in poor and fair category.
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cristos71
·This is a very good point.
It is what I value them when offered.
If I pay $2000 for a "FAIR" 74 with a no step dial, its going to cost perhaps 500-800 to bring up to standard.
Then, if the grade was based on a damaged dial and bezel, and worn case, we end up with a less desired reference, in a less desirable condition, with an all in cost of around $3000. Still sounds cheap - until you see the scar on the dial, or bezel, and then try to shift them on.
For example, how would you value this?
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Davidt
·I think one of the most important commentaries on the current market (which I believe may have been deleted from the latest update) was around sellers, pricing watches too high, often in line with 2021 pricing and chasing the market down. Effectively, reducing the price but by too little too late, with each reduction remaining slightly above the contemporary market value.
I’m seeing this more than ever, not just with vintage Speedmasters but also with moderns hype watches such as 90’s onwards Subs and GMTs. The market isn’t what it was across the board, but many private sellers don’t seem to be able or want to recognise it.
I’m seeing this more than ever, not just with vintage Speedmasters but also with moderns hype watches such as 90’s onwards Subs and GMTs. The market isn’t what it was across the board, but many private sellers don’t seem to be able or want to recognise it.
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Spacefruit
··Prolific Speedmaster HoarderI think one of the most important commentaries on the current market (which I believe may have been deleted from the latest update) was around sellers, pricing watches too high, often in line with 2021 pricing and chasing the market down. Effectively, reducing the price but by too little too late, with each reduction remaining slightly above the contemporary market value.
I’m seeing this more than ever, not just with vintage Speedmasters but also with moderns hype watches such as 90’s onwards Subs and GMTs. The market isn’t what it was across the board, but many private sellers don’t seem to be able or want to recognise it.
thanks David, I think you put it better than me.
if you look at the private sales section, there are at least two watches that are classic case studies. They are priced today for what they would have sold instantly on first offering, but remain unsold today, over a year later.
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padders
··Oooo subtitles!One quirk of the current data is that the transitional 145.022-68 is priced slightly higher than the 321 movement 145.012-67 and -68 models in all grades below VG. The sales data may reflect this but personally I put at $1-2K premium on a 321 over a 861 all other things being equal. I've never really understood the considerable appeal that the transitional has, to me it is a decontented 145.012-67/8.
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airansun
·The market isn’t what it was across the board, but many private sellers don’t seem to be able or want to recognise it.
I suspect that the private sellers driving this feel like they don’t have a choice: they’ve overextended themselves and can only hope to recover by selling.
A horrible position to be in. Been there and done that.
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S.H.
·One quirk of the current data is that the transitional 145.022-68 is priced slightly higher than the 321 movement 145.012-67 and -68 models in all grades below VG. The sales data may reflect this but personally I put at $1-2K premium on a 321 over a 861 all other things being equal. I've never really understood the considerable appeal that the transitional has, to me it is a decontented 145.012-67/8.
The transitional has the same externals than the old one so the same look, and much less troubles with the movement down the line if you wand to actually wear it (parts availability). I would value the transitional higher too...
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Davidt
·I suspect that the private sellers driving this feel like they don’t have a choice: they’ve overextended themselves and can only hope to recover by selling.
A horrible position to be in. Been there and done that.
I get that. What’s the phrase though, “a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush”. At some point it’s gotta be preferable to take say £2000 loss now and have the cash, rather than the delta being £4000 in 6 months time and it still hasn’t sold.
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worldwidewes
·I suspect that the private sellers driving this feel like they don’t have a choice: they’ve overextended themselves and can only hope to recover by selling.
A horrible position to be in. Been there and done that.
Totally agree, great point. I'd add that part of it is also the expectations buyers have to get a "deal" now that they expect all prices to be lower. I'm in this position right now as a seller. I bought a Coke 16710 in July. I wore it for a few months and decided I didn't want it any more and just wan't feeling it. It's a beautiful watch in great condition - unpolished (hard to find in this reference), sticker on the back, perfect dial and creamy lume. Just a very attractive watch all around. I posted it for sale in my watch collector group, which has a fair amount of collectors, and although I got some interest because a bunch of people acknowledged the kind of condition it was in, they all wanted deal because they expected prices to be lower, even though I was selling it for the exact amount I bought it for just a couple months prior.
Once prices for goods like this start trending down, everyone just expects the next purchase they make to be a part of that downward trend, which makes sellers reticent to sell (I decided to hold onto the watch because I'm not going to sell it to someone looking for a deal) and buyers reticent to buy (they don't want to buy something on it's downward trend, so they don't want to pay even a reasonable price).
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Davidt
·The fact is, the market is what the market is, and prices are dictated by what the market will bear.
I say this as both a buyer and a seller. I recently sold my Sub for 2 grand less than I would’ve expected 12 months ago, but in my mind prices are only going one way and I’d rather have a no hassle sale now, with cash in my pocket, than lots of hassle and tyre kickers over the next 6 months and potentially less in the long run anyway.
Obviously just my opinion. If sellers decide en masse not to sell, clearly a restriction in supply will maintain prices. I don’t really see what with the real global economy at the minute though. Back to @airansun ’s pint about some sellers perhaps overextending themselves, there comes a point with some people where whether you like it or not, cash is required and you’ve gotta take the offer on the table.
I say this as both a buyer and a seller. I recently sold my Sub for 2 grand less than I would’ve expected 12 months ago, but in my mind prices are only going one way and I’d rather have a no hassle sale now, with cash in my pocket, than lots of hassle and tyre kickers over the next 6 months and potentially less in the long run anyway.
Obviously just my opinion. If sellers decide en masse not to sell, clearly a restriction in supply will maintain prices. I don’t really see what with the real global economy at the minute though. Back to @airansun ’s pint about some sellers perhaps overextending themselves, there comes a point with some people where whether you like it or not, cash is required and you’ve gotta take the offer on the table.
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worldwidewes
·The fact is, the market is what the market is, and prices are dictated by what the market will bear.
I say this as both a buyer and a seller. I recently sold my Sub for 2 grand less than I would’ve expected 12 months ago, but in my mind prices are only going one way and I’d rather have a no hassle sale now, with cash in my pocket, than lots of hassle and tyre kickers over the next 6 months and potentially less in the long run anyway.
Obviously just my opinion. If sellers decide en masse not to sell, clearly a restriction in supply will maintain prices. I don’t really see what with the real global economy at the minute though. Back to @airansun ’s pint about some sellers perhaps overextending themselves, there comes a point with some people where whether you like it or not, cash is required and you’ve gotta take the offer on the table.
I agree with you, but the issue is that, unlike the stock market, the market for these things is based completely on what people's preferences are and what they happen to think future prices will be. In that situation, there's very little that's underpinning people's expectations on price. If they see a downward trend, they expect it to continue, and if they see an upward trend, they expect that to continue too. So, even if you don't overextend (I paid a fair price for the watch and I arguably got a deal given condition), you're going to lose money by simple virtue of what people see as the "trend" and vice versa if the trend is upward.
