So, you’re shipping a watch. Who assumes the risk?

[DaveK]

You know what they say about assumptions…so let’s clear one up for me. I’ve always assumed, for this forum in particular, that if you buy a watch and direct the seller to ship “by cheapest way possible”, that as the buyer you then assume 100% risk of the watch never arriving. I’ve seen lots of sales posts detail the parameters of a possible return, but never this aspect of shipping. A number of more expensive watches just include fully-insured shipping in the price, which makes tremendous sense. Would it be wise to clarify this in a sales post here or out in the real world?

I’ve never had the problem, but this thought comes to mind now and then. Thanks in advance for your thoughts

 

[duc]

My opinion is, unless it is clarified in the communications between buyer and seller, the seller is responsible until the watch arrives at the buyers address.

For that reason, when I transact with anyone out of the US, I always state the buyer assumes all responsibility once I deliver the parcel to the shipper. I am in the middle of discussing a transaction with a gentleman from India and have made my conditions very clear.

 

[Evitzee]

Pretty obvious to me, the seller has the duty to get the watch safely to the buyer. That's why I don't like sales posts that say, 'shipping to be discussed', or some other qualifier. I always include shipping/insurance when I sell, so it's my responsibility to package it properly and cover it with the appropriate insurance. If I'm selling to a company, or consigning a piece to auction, they usually will offer prepaid FedEx services with insurance included, and that's fine. I don't sell outside of the US, too much hassle and danger, especially with higher valued watches, just my personal preference, a USA market of 330 million is sufficient for me. If someone wants to return a watch under the terms of a sale he is responsible for safely getting it back to me. I try to keep 'shipping and insurance' outside of the sales equation.

 

[STANDY]

Never bought a watch over the internet from a stranger in another country with money I wasn’t prepared to loose.

Glad all my expensive vintage watches were bought before they were expensive (and nearly all were shipped via USPS, Royal Mail or countries local post system)

 

[Gav1967]

Evitzee

Pretty obvious to me, the seller has the duty to get the watch safely to the buyer. That's why I don't like sales posts that say, 'shipping to be discussed', or some other qualifier. I always include shipping/insurance when I sell, so it's my responsibility to package it properly and cover it with the appropriate insurance. If I'm selling to a company, or consigning a piece to auction, they usually will offer prepaid FedEx services with insurance included, and that's fine. I don't sell outside of the US, too much hassle and danger, especially with higher valued watches, just my personal preference, a USA market of 330 million is sufficient for me. If someone wants to return a watch under the terms of a sale he is responsible for safely getting it back to me. I try to keep 'shipping and insurance' outside of the sales equation.

+1.
I would expect the seller to be responsible for getting the watch to me and the cost for that should be priced into the final costs of the deal. If a buyer asks for different shipping methods than the seller recommends (cheaper or value not declared for tax reasons maybe) then he then assumes responsibility but this should be made clear at the time.

Just my opinion

Edited: May 22, 2024

 

[140dave]

It’s on the seller to get it to the buyer unless agreed to otherwise. Insurance is for the seller, not the buyer, as only the seller can actually file and make a claim against the insurance in most cases.

 

[Larry S]

My personal practice is to include shipping. I use parcel pro and insure it.

 

[gbesq]

Unless otherwise agreed between the parties, the risk is on the seller until the watch is delivered to the buyer. For that reason, I ship any watch that I’m selling via expedited delivery, fully insured, and with restricted delivery to the buyer ONLY with signature confirmation.

 

[Ron_W]

140dave

It’s on the seller to get it to the buyer

only if delivery is included in the transaction.

If nothing else is agreed upon, legally, ownership changes hands as soon as payment is done/recieved. This means the buyer is now the owner and it is on him/her to come and get the item, or arrange shipping with insurance. This is why buyers that list ; shipping is buyers responsibility, are correct.
The same applies if you win at auction, you either get the item in person or arrange shipping yourself, maybe with help/via the auction house, but if it goes missing it is not the responsibility of the auction house.

Of course you are free ( and smart ) to arrange things differently ie. better, but there is no obligation on the buyer to arrange insurance or solve shipping problems if he does not offer such services. Or you can use an escrow like Chrono24, as they force the seller to get insurance and tracked shipping, but at the buyers expense as is usualy mentioned in the add.

And there is nothing against asking a buyer to arrange a label and pick-up themselves, especially when it is exported out of the country. It all depends on what is agreed upon.

 

[Davidt]

When I sell, I assume the risk is with me until it reaches the buyer. This mirrors most delivery companies who state the sender is responsible for making a claim, not the receiver.
I do however state that international shipping is open for discussion, not because I’m willing to ship any old way, but because my preference is DHL. However, if a buyer prefers FedEx or whoever, I’m willing to do that as long as the service meets standards I’m comfortable with.

 

[gbesq]

Ron_W

only if delivery is included in the transaction.

If nothing else is agreed upon, legally, ownership changes hands as soon as payment is done/recieved. This means the buyer is now the owner and it is on him/her to come and get the item, or arrange shipping with insurance. This is why buyers that list ; shipping is buyers responsibility, are correct.
The same applies if you win at auction, you either get the item in person or arrange shipping yourself, maybe with help/via the auction house, but if it goes missing it is not the responsibility of the auction house.

Of course you are free ( and smart ) to arrange things differently ie. better, but there is no obligation on the buyer to arrange insurance or solve shipping problems if he does not offer such services. Or you can use an escrow like Chrono24, as they force the seller to get insurance and tracked shipping, but at the buyers expense as is usualy mentioned in the add.

And there is nothing against asking a buyer to arrange a label and pick-up themselves, especially when it is exported out of the country. It all depends on what is agreed upon.

I wouldn’t make that assumption. In a destination contract for the sale of goods, title and assumption of risk passes to the buyer when the seller meets his/her delivery obligations. I’ve yet to meet a buyer who thought that it was his or her obligation to come get a watch or arrange for delivery. That being said, parties can contract for whatever terms they desire.

 

[140dave]

Ron_W

only if delivery is included in the transaction.

If nothing else is agreed upon, legally, ownership changes hands as soon as payment is done/recieved. This means the buyer is now the owner and it is on him/her to come and get the item, or arrange shipping with insurance. This is why buyers that list ; shipping is buyers responsibility, are correct.
The same applies if you win at auction, you either get the item in person or arrange shipping yourself, maybe with help/via the auction house, but if it goes missing it is not the responsibility of the auction house.

Of course you are free ( and smart ) to arrange things differently ie. better, but there is no obligation on the buyer to arrange insurance or solve shipping problems if he does not offer such services. Or you can use an escrow like Chrono24, as they force the seller to get insurance and tracked shipping, but at the buyers expense as is usualy mentioned in the add.

And there is nothing against asking a buyer to arrange a label and pick-up themselves, especially when it is exported out of the country. It all depends on what is agreed upon.

I do not disagree with anything you said, however under those terms I would never be a buyer. The auction houses I use all have the same policy I do, it isn't mine until tracking says I have it.

edit to add: and you conveniently clipped my quote when I said "unless agreed to otherwise" right after what you snipped

 

[Larry S]

gbesq

I wouldn’t make that assumption. In a destination contract for the sale of goods, title and assumption of risk passes to the buyer when the seller meets his/her delivery obligations. I’ve yet to meet a buyer who thought that it was his or her obligation to come get a watch or arrange for delivery. That being said, parties can contract for whatever terms they desire.

Absolutely agree. I’m touching it last and I want the transaction trail with signature so the buyer can’t claim they didn’t get it. I can just imagine a situation where the buyer sends me shipping docs, I execute and they claim non receipt. This is also why I refuse to fib about customs value and why I’m reluctant to do off shore sales.

 

[pdxleaf]

140dave

. The auction houses I use all have the same policy I do, it isn't mine until tracking says I have it.

I have purchased from auction houses and learned to verify before bidding if they will ship. I hadn't considered the reason so many auction houses say they don't ship is because they are passing on the liability to me, the buyer. Makes sense.

As a seller here on OF, it's easier and cleaner for me to include shipping in the price. My expectation is that if lost, I get reimbursed from insurance and refund the buyer. If I don't properly insure, it's on me.

But this is for shipping in North America, where I am located. I specify shipping to be discussed for outside NA because of the cost and what shipper the buyer wants to use. I may or may not assume responsibility, depending on what a buyer wants to do, but most often, the responsibility is on me unless the buyer says no insurance. I imagine this is similar to people who live in other areas in the world. I once had a person in South Africa ask about a watch and shipping was more than the cost of the watch. Since then, I don't just say shipping included unless specifying if it's limited to parts of the world.

It's a good question. I also wonder if anyone has lost a watch in shipment? I have, but it wasn't from a purchase, it was during a service. That experience has made me nervous every time a watch is mailed.

 

[Gav1967]

Ron_W

only if delivery is included in the transaction.

If nothing else is agreed upon, legally, ownership changes hands as soon as payment is done/recieved. This means the buyer is now the owner and it is on him/her to come and get the item, or arrange shipping with insurance. This is why buyers that list ; shipping is buyers responsibility, are correct.
The same applies if you win at auction, you either get the item in person or arrange shipping yourself, maybe with help/via the auction house, but if it goes missing it is not the responsibility of the auction house.

Of course you are free ( and smart ) to arrange things differently ie. better, but there is no obligation on the buyer to arrange insurance or solve shipping problems if he does not offer such services. Or you can use an escrow like Chrono24, as they force the seller to get insurance and tracked shipping, but at the buyers expense as is usualy mentioned in the add.

And there is nothing against asking a buyer to arrange a label and pick-up themselves, especially when it is exported out of the country. It all depends on what is agreed upon.

Of course most of us are discussing in general terms but in reality each buyer and seller are free to contract on any terms they feel comfortable with. They are both also free to take their business elsewhere if terms don't suit

 

[gbesq]

pdxleaf

It's a good question. I also wonder if anyone has lost a watch in shipment? I have, but it wasn't from a purchase, it was during a service. That experience has made me nervous every time a watch is mailed.

I’ve never lost one, but I did have one that took several months to reach a buyer in Poland that was shipped from the U.S. All was fine until the USPS handed the watch over to the Polish postal service and the Polish customs service. Door to door was 71 days if I remember correctly and that was with expedited shipping!

 

[Donn Chambers]

DaveK

You know what they say about assumptions…so let’s clear one up for me. I’ve always assumed, for this forum in particular, that if you buy a watch and direct the seller to ship “by cheapest way possible”, that as the buyer you then assume 100% risk of the watch never arriving. I’ve seen lots of sales posts detail the parameters of a possible return, but never this aspect of shipping. A number of more expensive watches just include fully-insured shipping in the price, which makes tremendous sense. Would it be wise to clarify this in a sales post here or out in the real world?

I’ve never had the problem, but this thought comes to mind now and then. Thanks in advance for your thoughts

As a seller, I always tell the seller I am going to ship in the safest, most secure way I believe the package will arrive to them, and quote them the price. If they are uncomfortable with that and want me to ship it cheaper, I tell them to find another seller. This is a recipe for disaster if something goes wrong. There are other buyers.

The one time I didn't do this nearly became a mess -- I sold a bunch of old comics to someone in Australia for not a lot of money (maybe $100). The cost to ship the package (because of weight, these was a set of $1-$2 comics), the shipping would have been something close to $200 for two-day air. He balked, asked to ship it ground (i.e., by ship) which would set him back only another $25 or so. I agreed, but told him the post office estimated it could be a month to get there. Guess who kept hounding me for a refund (via eBay) for a refund after only a week. Yeah. I managed to not give him the refund (because I had proof of our email exchanges and this was back when eBay didn't always defer to the buyer), but it was a PITA for not a lot of profit. I would never do it for something worth the price of a luxury watch.

 

[Larry S]

Donn Chambers

As a seller, I always tell the seller I am going to ship in the safest, most secure way I believe the package will arrive to them, and quote them the price. If they are uncomfortable with that and want me to ship it cheaper, I tell them to find another seller. This is a recipe for disaster if something goes wrong. There are other buyers.

The one time I didn't do this nearly became a mess -- I sold a bunch of old comics to someone in Australia for not a lot of money (maybe $100). The cost to ship the package (because of weight, these was a set of $1-$2 comics), the shipping would have been something close to $200 for two-day air. He balked, asked to ship it ground (i.e., by ship) which would set him back only another $25 or so. I agreed, but told him the post office estimated it could be a month to get there. Guess who kept hounding me for a refund (via eBay) for a refund after only a week. Yeah. I managed to not give him the refund (because I had proof of our email exchanges and this was back when eBay didn't always defer to the buyer), but it was a PITA for not a lot of profit. I would never do it for something worth the price of a luxury watch.

Bingo…

 

[KeithS]

Donn Chambers

As a seller, I always tell the seller I am going to ship in the safest, most secure way I believe the package will arrive to them, and quote them the price. If they are uncomfortable with that and want me to ship it cheaper, I tell them to find another seller. This is a recipe for disaster if something goes wrong. There are other buyers.

That's smart. I used to ship via whatever method the buyer preferred. Last year, however, I sold an item through this forum that was shipped per the instructions of the buyer (including no signature). The buyer messaged me several days later stating he had not received it, despite it being listed as delivered by the courier. I was somewhat taken aback when he immediately demanded a refund despite me not having any recourse to make an insurance claim. Thankfully, it turns out the courier had left the package in the buyer's door rather than his mailbox, so I didn't lose any money. That said, I now only ship from a UPS/FEDEX store to UPS/FEDEX store.

 

[kippyk]

Who is responsible in this scenario: I send a package to an address and I require a signature. The shipping company just drops off the package without a signature, and the package is stolen. Or similarly, post office says the pacage is delivered (no signature is required), but the reciever says they did not receive it. Is it the buyer or seller that is responsible for resolving the mess?

I find 50% of the time that packages I am supposed to sign for are just left at the door.