Seiko True Pogue has the right stuff to BLAST off

bardamu · Feb 27, 2020

pseikotick
I'd have happily bought that one for 950. I guess someone else would, too. 😉

I'm a little suspicious of the intent of two people who post in this thread concerns about the lum and dial when I showed clearly that he white lum is more common than not on these dials, and there is not a single thing about the dial that makes it appear to be anything other than correct and original. If you are going to cast aspersions, one should show some evidence and comparisons. Show a correct dial and how it differs if you are going to claim this one is wrong. I've checked it closely, and it shows no signs of being incorrect.

Uh? As far as I'm concerned, don't worry: I'm completely cool about your dial being original. I was only a bit dubious about the white lume.
I have no other intent, be sure about that.

bardamu · Feb 27, 2020

pseikotick
Yes, that was part of my concern. But at the very least, it's not too much to ask that one do some learning before making statements. They weren't asking if the dials looked wrong. They were STATING. I took the time to post a dozen images showing watches of the same age with snow white lum. There are hundreds more images on ebay and elsewhere that affirm the lum can be very white after 40 or more years. The assertions that the dials were incorrect should be followed by some evidence. As for ways to ID repro dials, in the subdial, all repros I have seen will have the small seconds marks at a distance from the outer edge of the subdial. Also, I have yet to see a fake/repro of the true pogue dial as shown in many of these photos. The repro dials also have a much more metallic appearance and are fairly easy to spot. The corrosion around the subdial is also from traces of moisture and can be found on many correct dials. Some appear to have a thick line of paint around the subdial as a result.

And again, there are not hundreds of aftermarket true pogue dials for sale. If anyone finds one, I'd very much like to see it. For some reason, it hasn't been copied yet, but I'm sure it will be.

I wasn't stating absolutely nothing. You should chill out a bit.
And be polite when you write a private message: hi, hello, cheers, bye bye...things like that, you know?
Cheers

Dan S · Feb 27, 2020

pseikotick
Yes, that was part of my concern. But at the very least, it's not too much to ask that one do some learning before making statements. They weren't asking if the dials looked wrong. They were STATING. I took the time to post a dozen images showing watches of the same age with snow white lum. There are hundreds more images on ebay and elsewhere that affirm the lum can be very white after 40 or more years. The assertions that the dials were incorrect should be followed by some evidence. As for ways to ID repro dials, in the subdial, all repros I have seen will have the small seconds marks at a distance from the outer edge of the subdial. Also, I have yet to see a fake/repro of the true pogue dial as shown in many of these photos. The repro dials also have a much more metallic appearance and are fairly easy to spot. The corrosion around the subdial is also from traces of moisture and can be found on many correct dials. Some appear to have a thick line of paint around the subdial as a result.

And again, there are not hundreds of aftermarket true pogue dials for sale. If anyone finds one, I'd very much like to see it. For some reason, it hasn't been copied yet, but I'm sure it will be.

Well, @pseikotick, to be fair, you were the one who posted a link to an ongoing eBay auction, an action that many OF members consider questionable, and that is not allowed on many forums. It is allowed here, but it clearly has the potential to influence the outcome of the auction one way or the other, and it's a bit harsh to scold random OF members for giving their opinions when you are the one who enabled them to potentially influence the auction. If this concerns you, it might be best to simply have a bit more patience next time and wait for the auction to end. That way, if people post opinions that you feel are uninformed (which is always likely on the internet), at least it won't influence the auction.

In general, I feel that if one starts a thread, one should be prepared for people to post conflicting opinions, and in fact I think it's nice to encourage healthy debate. IMO, it is not good form to scold, stifle, or question the motives of members for making relevant contributions to a thread that you created, even if you disagree with the content. Obviously it's great for you to correct factual errors and give your own opinion.

Dan S · Feb 27, 2020

pseikotick
I posted it so someone who wants one would have a chance to buy it. They very rarely auction out. I've learned my lesson.

Which is exactly why other people sometimes do it, and there’s no rule against it. But if you look at other threads where this is done, people often give conflicting opinions, and it’s up to a potential bidder to sort things out. You obviously are knowledgeable about this reference, so I think you should just give your opinion and be confident that it will carry weight.

Gav1967 · Feb 28, 2020

pseikotick
https://www.ebay.com/itm/264642086180?_trksid=p2471758.m4704
Here is a true pogue ending tomorrow that was listed last month then pulled at about 1200usd due to needing service, apparently. And I think they added a cheap bracelet. It's a rare example of one that is better than average and will actually sell at auction. It's already near 1500. That would only be possible with another less correct Pogue if it were NOS. This one should give a good idea of where the market is on one that is nice, without bracelet, just minor wear overall and no serious water damage. I'm going to guess 2k.

In response to Dan's comment on the case: I'm guilty of not being a stickler on case condition. I overlook polishing and flaws to some extent, like a parent with an incorrigible child.

In any case...... it's a nice example. (I can't insert a wink smiley, dammit.)

I see it went for $1600 in the end. Couple that together with the one that went for $950 I guess that gives a pretty good indication of where the market is

efauser · Apr 20, 2020

pseikotick
https://www.ebay.com/itm/254570180089

Already over 1500 and not running. Add several hundred for service and potential parts. It’s rare that these stop running.

What is the seller measuring that's 70mm? "Is a round case that measures 70mm."

asrnj77 · Apr 20, 2020

pseikotick
https://www.ebay.com/itm/254570180089

Already over 1500 and not running. Add several hundred for service and potential parts.

As for the 70mm question below, it is likely meant to be 70m which is taken from the dial script re water resistance. Or...it's the largest seiko ever made.

I didn’t see where it said it wasn’t it wasn’t running.

efauser · Apr 20, 2020

asrnj77
I didn’t see where it said it wasn’t it wasn’t running.

Directly below the title:

Condition:
Pre-owned

“In great physical condition on the exterior but is not currently running.”

Dan S · Apr 20, 2020

Really nice example, very sharp case, good bracelet, bright colors everywhere. Maybe it has experienced less wear from being "not running" for a long time. 😀

pseikotick · Apr 22, 2020

pseikotick
I'm not new to Seiko, as I owned many when my pockets were young and shallow, but I am only recently enjoying the Seiko space connection: The "Pogue" 6139 6005 American market watch worn by Bill Pogue on Skylab 4. The exact variant he wore sported "water 70m resist" on the left side of the dial and only "SEIKO Automatic" beneath noon. Of course, the dial was gold. That variation seems to have been produced between Feb 1971 and Apr 1972 only and only sold in US markets. He bought his at a BX on a USAF installation.

Those not paying attention may not have noticed the prices during the last few years, but what used to be maybe 500 usd for a nice example just a few years ago can now bring 2500 for a similar watch. There is scarcity and high demand. I believe within a few short years similar condition "true Pogues" will match the prices of early 70s Speedmaster Pros. (4 to 7K currently, give or take) You might say this watch has the right stuff to blast off in value.

And just a couple of months down the road, here is a very good indicator of the market on the "true Pogue." And very interestingly, the same seller also had a 6139 6002 in almost identical condition, very clean, orig. bracelet, NOT running, beautiful dial. I will add images showing the selling price disparity in two watches from nearly the same year, but one with the dial script matching Bill Pogue's and the other just slightly different. This seller's two auctions create one of the best market value examples I've ever seen, and the watches sold just a few minutes apart. It is also very important to note that both watches do not run and will almost certainly need 500 or more in service and parts to be made right. Some parts are almost impossible to find. With service, one need not be a mathematician to see this example is a 3k usd watch according to at least 2 bidders. Yes, it's in great shape, with some minor case dings...and not working. It's not mint.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SEIKO-6139...180089?hash=item3b4590adf9:g:PsMAAOSwcMNel0QA . ended at 2600 usd

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SEIKO-6139...da16830d0:g:W9QAAOSwiEVel0SO&autorefresh=true . ended at a very respectable 1275 usd but clearly not in the same realm

Here they were listed together just before they ended.

1 May 2020
This one sold in the last 24 hrs. I made a few offers of considerably less money, but the seller, original owner, confirmed he got full price for it. 3000, and it has NEVER been serviced so obviously needs another 500 or so invested right away. I think these last two sales make it clear 3k or more is fair market for nice examples...and this is in the midst of a pandemic. My original prediction was that these would reach the level of nice early 70s Speedmasters in the near future (4 to 7k). Now I'd say 4k is possible within this year for a nice, serviced example.

140dave · Apr 22, 2020

I do wonder if all of the top 2-3 bidders knew the watch was not running, it is really almost hidden information depending on what format you use to look at eBay. It is not mentioned in the description or title, just in that other info field that doesn’t really jump out on mobile versions.
Does nothing to change your point on this subject, and the price disparity still would have been there for sure, but I do think his particular listing benefited from what I think was a lack of true transparency. It should have been mentioned in the product description as well.

efauser · Apr 22, 2020

140dave
I do wonder if all of the top 2-3 bidders knew the watch was not running, it is really almost hidden information depending on what format you use to look at eBay. It is not mentioned in the description or title, just in that other info field that doesn’t really jump out on mobile versions.
Does nothing to change your point on this subject, and the price disparity still would have been there for sure, but I do think his particular listing benefited from what I think was a lack of true transparency. It should have been mentioned in the product description as well.

Maybe so but I think you'd have a very hard time getting eBay to side with you , if there was a no return policy. Obviously moot here.

smitty190373 · Apr 22, 2020

No surprise here. When these come to market and are deemed to be 'true pogues' with all the correct characteristics they are always fought over.

It was good to see the auction run it's course and not end early. This one finished approx £400/$500 over the last one I saw run its course in late 2019, although that was a UK seller.

With a 6139-6002 also ending from the same seller it shows the extra premium a T.P commands in todays Seiko market.

Congrats to the buyer 👍.

140dave · Apr 22, 2020

Agreed 👍
My point was simply that it may have gone for a bit more than it would have if it was clear in the description or title that the watch wasnt running. Like I said, it does not change the point the OP is making, the demand and premium for this watch is obvious.

asrnj77 · Apr 22, 2020

140dave
Agreed 👍
My point was simply that it may have gone for a bit more than it would have if it was clear in the description or title that the watch wasnt running. Like I said, it does not change the point the OP is making, the demand and premium for this watch is obvious.

I agree. When I pulled this listing up on my iPhone it didn’t show the tab that said it wasn’t running. Only when I viewed it on a full screen laptop did I notice it. They aren’t terrible complicated calibers and the parts are plentiful but it is an additional expense. I’ll admit that I prefer this dial over the suspiciously blinding white markers of the previous watch we discussed.

SpeedyPhill · May 1, 2020

Especially now it seems Apollo 15 astronaut James Irwin also wore a Seiko 6139 post-NASA career in 1974 !

pdxleaf · May 1, 2020

For background, I have a 6139-6002, no water resist or proof, so I am a fan. I bought it before I knew the actual pogue was a 6005, although i knew about the water resist feature.

I agree that these could hit 2500 in the future. They are certainly rising in cost. They are also getting harder to find in nice original condition. As evidence of their value, consider the large amount of forgeries. The dials are available and a lot of watches are being sold as something they aren't. A Google search shows how to identify a non-original.

The 6139 is a great watch even without the space connection such as it's first automatic claim. I didn't care for the dial at first but I have really grown to love it. It glows. I like the feature of pushing in the crown once or twice to change the day or date. It's a fun watch on the wrist.

For doubters, it doesn't matter because you probably don't want one anyway. But for those of us who have been searching, it is very hard to find a nice, original, 6139-6005 and with water resist on the dial and gold dial (not blue or black). Scarcity plus desire brings higher cost. Who would have thought 321 Omega's would have risen so much in just the last few years.

So here it is in print. Check back in 3 years to see where we are with the cost.

In the meantime, anyone have a nice, original 6139-6005 water resist dial they want to unload..?

140dave · May 9, 2020

Anyone get this one? I waited and waited for 30days but got distracted last second and f**b**g missed the end. Bargain for someone. Still kicking myself, will take a couple days to get over and forgive myself for my brain lock.

pdxleaf · May 9, 2020

Damn! You're not kidding. Feel your pain.

killer67 · May 9, 2020

140dave
Anyone get this one? I waited and waited for 30days but got distracted last second and f**b**g missed the end. Bargain for someone. Still kicking myself, will take a couple days to get over and forgive myself for my brain lock.

what auction?

Seiko True Pogue has the right stuff to BLAST off

bardamu

bardamu

Dan S

Dan S

Gav1967

efauser

asrnj77

efauser

Dan S

pseikotick

140dave

efauser

smitty190373

140dave

asrnj77

SpeedyPhill

pdxleaf

140dave

pdxleaf

killer67

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