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Seiko True Pogue has the right stuff to BLAST off

smitty190373
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jsducote jsducote
But the real challenge is figuring out what actually flew. Pogue documented that the watch 'evolved' while in his ownership, having changed out parts over the years. While the caseback and movement aren't a guarantee of what flew, as they may also have 'evolved', I'd like to see those (don't believe pictures currently exist) to have a better idea of whether it's the 6002 or the 6005. I believe that anyone stating definitively is fooling themselves.

I agree with that. If the 1st owner is unable to confirm exactly what is original, and what isn't, it's an uphill task for anyone.

For the past 12 + years the majority have assumed the characteristics I mentioned are correct though, and therefore those pieces always achieve a higher interest.

Either way as a relatively affordable vintage watch the 6139-600xs offer great value, and an interesting story.

👍
 
jsducote
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pseikotick pseikotick
And let's be more clear. I've spent plenty of time in USAF BXs. They are not going to fly in products from other hemispheres for no reason. They bring in as much as possible from the nearest market. To think otherwise would be misguided.
Since I grew up and went to school a few miles away, I've actually spent time in the Ellington BX, being an Air Force brat myself. There was not a whole lot going on in the suburbs of Houston in the early 70s, and Ellington was never much of base, so "nearest market" isn't the same as walking into a local jewelers. Whether or not it was even something that AAFES carried at all versus a special order item that someone had to try to figure out on his behalf isn't known. There is evidence that it was a layaway item, so it's very likely (in my mind) that it wasn't sitting in the display case when he walked in. Someone tracking down a special order for a special customer may not have been aware of the available variants and then had to deal with the bureaucracy involved in federal procurement regulations.

That the subdial hand was replaced is all the evidence *I* need to suggest that something else might have also changed along the way, including the dial. I'm sorry that I don't share your conviction, but the non-English day dial is still a huge red-flag against certainty for me. I need at least the caseback. Until then, we'll have to agree to disagree and I won't debate this any further.
 
Gav1967
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jsducote jsducote
Since I grew up and went to school a few miles away, I've actually spent time in the Ellington BX, being an Air Force brat myself. There was not a whole lot going on in the suburbs of Houston in the early 70s, and Ellington was never much of base, so "nearest market" isn't the same as walking into a local jewelers. Whether or not it was even something that AAFES carried at all versus a special order item that someone had to try to figure out on his behalf isn't known. There is evidence that it was a layaway item, so it's very likely (in my mind) that it wasn't sitting in the display case when he walked in. Someone tracking down a special order for a special customer may not have been aware of the available variants and then had to deal with the bureaucracy involved in federal procurement regulations.

That the subdial hand was replaced is all the evidence *I* need to suggest that something else might have also changed along the way, including the dial. I'm sorry that I don't share your conviction, but the non-English day dial is still a huge red-flag against certainty for me. I need at least the caseback. Until then, we'll have to agree to disagree and I won't debate this any further.
Hi, I have contributed a little to this thread but not being an expert I have been mainly reading to educate myself.
One item of interest is your comment on the non English day dial. My 6002 is dual language (French and English) I assumed the Pogue watch would be the same. What am I missing?
 
SpeedyPhill
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Two more NASA photos, Bill Pogue wearing the Seiko 6139 Automatic in this family portrait and onboard the Skylab-4 mission...
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Pogue_MoonwatchUniverse.jpg
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Pogue_NASA.jpg
 
Gav1967
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pseikotick pseikotick
Here’s a new addition with some sunburn. Born Sep 1971.
A7F97F27-C92A-4DFB-97A5-4389E25169B2.jpeg
saw this on ebay and was snagged quickly
 
Gav1967
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pseikotick pseikotick
I have a couple of good friends who keep an eye out for things they know I'm interested in. One of them found that one and sent it to me. The dial actually looks very different in hand. It's much more metallic, and the dark areas look like what we used to call "toning" on old Hot Wheels cars. It's a lot like patina and looks less like dirt than the photo.

Three Ami-Pogues
71263D43-9EB4-46C8-8F52-CB3DEC706B0D.jpeg
very nice collection although the printing on the subdial of the furthest right example in the photo looks suspicious to me
 
Foo2rama
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They have been on my smart investment list for excellent examples at a good price for a few years now.
Edited:
 
Uniqez
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Not quite Pogue, but close enough for me. These are really nice watches. Only one complaint I have is 19mm bracelet...
 
1507894471241.jpg
Dan S
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pseikotick pseikotick
You know, until recent months I hadn't a clue about vintage Seiko mechanical watches. I had owned a few 80s quartzes, and they were great, for quartz, but no clue about the mechanical watches. But the limited experience I now have with the old Seikos is telling. They are work horses that at least compare favorably with Swiss watches from then and now. Even after decades without service, they almost always run and keep pretty fair time. My only gripe is that the 6139 can't be wound by hand when need arises. Great little machines.

They made many good watches, especially the GS and KS lines. However, in addition to the lack of hand-winding, the low jewel count in many of the autowinding movements is also a negative. Of course, some Swiss watches imported into the US also suffer from the same shortcoming because of the low-jeweled movements made in response to import duty rules.
 
SpeedyPhill
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Between Nov 73 & Feb 1974, during Skylab-4 space station mission both astronaut William Pogue (Seiko 6139) and astronaut Gerald Carr (Movado Datron) wore an automatic chronograph. So the "Seiko Pogue" and "Movado Carr" were both the first automatic chronographs to be worn in space! #MoonwatchUniverse
https://moonwatchuniverse.tumblr.com/archive
 
Dan S
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https://www.ebay.com/itm/264642086180?_trksid=p2471758.m4704
Here is a true pogue ending tomorrow that was listed last month then pulled at about 1200usd due to needing service, apparently. And I think they added a cheap bracelet. It's a rare example of one that is better than average and will actually sell at auction. It's already near 1500. That would only be possible with another less correct Pogue if it were NOS. This one should give a good idea of where the market is on one that is nice, without bracelet, just minor wear overall and no serious water damage. I'm going to guess 2k.


I wish the case were better.
 
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bardamu
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pseikotick pseikotick
https://www.ebay.com/itm/264642086180?_trksid=p2471758.m4704
Here is a true pogue ending tomorrow that was listed last month then pulled at about 1200usd due to needing service, apparently. And I think they added a cheap bracelet. It's a rare example of one that is better than average and will actually sell at auction. It's already near 1500. That would only be possible with another less correct Pogue if it were NOS. This one should give a good idea of where the market is on one that is nice, without bracelet, just minor wear overall and no serious water damage. I'm going to guess 2k.

In response to Dan's comment on the case: I'm guilty of not being a stickler on case condition. I overlook polishing and flaws to some extent, like a parent with an incorrigible child.

In any case...... it's a nice example. (I can't insert a wink smiley, dammit.)

Markers and hands seem relumed to me, that looks like new...
 
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bardamu
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The lum should look very bright white unless it's had moisture issues. You can check any 6139 to see examples. I'd say more than half have snowy white lum. I've seen many dozens of 6139s that were beat to hell but retained the white lum.

You are right, but the fact is that in my experience I've seen very few dials without any kind of moisture issue, still retaining factory snowy lume.
 
Gav1967
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pseikotick pseikotick
https://www.ebay.com/itm/264642086180?_trksid=p2471758.m4704
Here is a true pogue ending tomorrow that was listed last month then pulled at about 1200usd due to needing service, apparently. And I think they added a cheap bracelet. It's a rare example of one that is better than average and will actually sell at auction. It's already near 1500. That would only be possible with another less correct Pogue if it were NOS. This one should give a good idea of where the market is on one that is nice, without bracelet, just minor wear overall and no serious water damage. I'm going to guess 2k.

In response to Dan's comment on the case: I'm guilty of not being a stickler on case condition. I overlook polishing and flaws to some extent, like a parent with an incorrigible child.

In any case...... it's a nice example. (I can't insert a wink smiley, dammit.)
another one appeared with a BIN price of $950 https://www.ebay.com/itm/193359965261
 
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asrnj77
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bardamu bardamu
Markers and hands seem relumed to me, that looks like new...

I was thinking the same thing and even worse it could be an aftermarket dial. Maybe, maybe not but I’m not going to toss +$1500 at it if I’m not certain.
 
Gav1967
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bardamu bardamu
You are right, but the fact is that in my experience I've seen very few dials without any kind of moisture issue, still retaining factory snowy lume.
I have no problem with the lume. Looks genuine to me. see service photos of my dial below which is 100% genuine original untouched
P1210493.JPG P1210497.JPG P1210504.JPG
Edited:
 
asrnj77
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I'd have happily bought that one for 950. I guess someone else would, too. 😉

I'm a little suspicious of the intent of two people who post in this thread concerns about the lum and dial when I showed clearly that he white lum is more common than not on these dials, and there is not a single thing about the dial that makes it appear to be anything other than correct and original. If you are going to cast aspersions, one should show some evidence and comparisons. Show a correct dial and how it differs if you are going to claim this one is wrong. I've checked it closely, and it shows no signs of being incorrect.

Are your suspicions that they want to drive down the price to buy it for themselves? What is wrong with asking questions about the authenticity of a particular watch? The only thing that differentiates this $2000 watch from a $300 watch is the dial and there are hundreds of aftermarket dials for sale on eBay alone. I’m not an expert on Seiko dials but I do have old tritium dials (including Seiko ones) and they don’t look bright white. I’m not saying this is a relume or aftermarket but it’s enough to give me pause before dropping a lot of money on it.
 
Flatfoot
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I have observed a “tell” for an original, aged yellow sunburst dial which may be seen in the change in appearance around the outside of the 30 minute subdial. It is the circular edge where the recessed subdial breaks into the “flat” of the major portion of the dial. Often I’ve seen a ring of corrosion in that area, but it can also look like a thinning, less vivid appearance of the yellow color. I believe this example below is all original. You can see the feathers of corrosion branching up into the flat of the dial.
318B6D01-89D5-421D-806E-C1E7DCE33563.jpeg


I Agree that even old, original lume plots on such a dial can appear to be much whiter in color than one may expect.
See the plots on this Kakume. The 12/6/9 dots are white, while the lume plots on the outboard side of the other indices are aged so differently to a charcoal gray- as are the hands.
D82BCE6C-C3A6-47F5-9DBB-FA7E2D96C87D.jpeg
 
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