Seiko True Pogue has the right stuff to BLAST off

Dan S · Feb 1, 2020

smitty190373
True pogues are not common.

Wow, this thread has taken an ugly turn, with people's quotes being manipulated and taken out of context, and other people being personally attacked. One has to wonder what is going on here. My specific quote was:

"The 6139-600x references have historical interest, but the style does not appeal to everyone, and they are perhaps too common."

One particular variant is obviously less common than the full gamut of variations, and prices can be higher for a particular variant. I understand that. But the fact that the 6139-600x references are incredibly common as a whole will probably put a damper on values. Just my opinion, which I am allowed to express. Everyone here is just blowing smoke, and obviously we are talking about relatively low values for a vintage chronograph, even if they have reached $2k.

SpeedyPhill · Feb 1, 2020

This topic needs some NASA photos
.

William Pogue during Skylab training wearing the Seiko underneath the spacesuit ( remember that topic 😁 )
.

January 1974, Skylab-4 pilot Bill Pogue at work in the space station... wearing two wristwatches to time events. (NASA)

Dan S · Feb 1, 2020

pseikotick
Dan, we are not "down to 1500," but low prices do occur regardless of the brand or model. I'm sure you know that a 105.002 could sell for 4k even today if the buyer/seller were not aware of the market value. It happens. But true Pogues in good original condition will sell between 2 and 3k if both parties are knowledgeable. The sales I know are mostly not in the open. I again point you to Spencer Klein who has sold probably more than a dozen in recent months. That's just a guess.

↑As for ugliness, the post below might help explain. It is IN context and not manipulated.

ME: And Janice and Fred, you might want to pull out that mound of Pogues you have and check to see if any have the correct markings. I'll buy every one you have at 700 or less depending on condition.

NOT ME: we know what we have and we don't need to "pull them out" and check anything and report back in the hopes you follow thru with your offer. despite our penchant for watch-hunting and selling here and there, our Pogues, just like most of our long-standing collection of stuff are not for sale. if we were looking to cash-in we have other watches far more interesting than the Pogues. however we wouldn't think of using one from our collection as an icon and start threads on it attempting to create buzz and boost it's value, but to each their own.

OK, thanks for this clarification. Still, if you can provide some links to sales, I think it would be helpful. With most references, even though many sales are between collectors, one can generally find a few eBay, auction, or forum sales as examples.

smitty190373 · Feb 1, 2020

I'm not sure how anything I've said is ugly. ??

Seems a bit pointless talking about all 6139 600x when the thread is in regard to 1 certain reference only.

Flatfoot · Feb 1, 2020

Yeah, this thread needs pictures. I’m very fond of the early 6139’s and Pogues in particular. I’m a fan for sure.
Personally, I’d like to think that the Pogues -however defined- can continue to be an achievable gateway for others to become interested in vintage watches.

I scooped this rather honest example off eBay about 3-4 years ago now. Aside from a later tapered bracelet I added- it’s not been messed with. They’re still out there....

smitty190373 · Feb 1, 2020

Flatfoot
Yeah, this thread needs pictures. I’m very fond of the early 6139’s and Pogues in particular. I’m a fan for sure.
Personally, I’d like to think that the Pogues -however defined- can continue to be an achievable gateway for others to become interested in vintage watches.

I scooped this rather honest example off eBay about 3-4 years ago now. Aside from a later tapered bracelet I added- it’s not been messed with. They’re still out there....

Lovely 👍

Dan S · Feb 1, 2020

smitty190373
Seems a bit pointless talking about all 6139 600x when the thread is in regard to 1 certain reference only.

With very few exceptions, various sub-references will be somewhat coupled in their pricing since most buyers see them as viable alternatives. Perhaps a particular sub-reference will sell somewhat higher than others because of rarity or a historical connection. But if there are other very similar sub-references that are widely available, that has the potential to put a cap on the value of the more desirable sub-references. The values rise and fall together.

Again, you might want to take a look at the style of your posts ... they have an obnoxious tone. You purposely provided a partial quote of my post previously, in a deliberate effort to distort the point I was making. Now, you say my comments are "pointless". This is my speculative opinion about how things may go in the future, and I think it's just as good as yours, since I have a reasonable amount of experience with vintage watch values.

nickgr · Feb 1, 2020

My "not so true" Pogue says hi😉

smitty190373 · Feb 1, 2020

Dan S
Now, you say my comments are "pointless". This is my speculative opinion about how things may go in the future, and I think it's just as good as yours, since I have a reasonable amount of experience with vintage watch values.

Seeing as the thread was started specifically about 1 reference with certain characteristics, those are the only 6139 I thought worth talking about.

I apologise if you see this as obnoxious.... if anyone has links or threads showing recent sales at the lower values mentioned I would be genuinely interested to see them. I'm happy to stand corrected if you guys can regularly find these at those prices.... i've looked on and off for them over the last few years and have only seen 2 sell in the UK, in as many years. You guys obviously may see a lot more in the US as they were sold in the US market.

I'd be happy to buy one if they are available.. i've owned a few 6139 6xxxs but never what i regard as a true one.

All the best.

Walrus · Feb 1, 2020

Well a little drama popped up but I think it is bound to happen when our communication lacks physiognomy but I’ve always eyed this particular watch and saw it’s value all over the place but never realized the history behind it or even how it acquired its name. I just liked it for the color and layout of its dial. Is there a story why this astronaut chose to wear it? Was seiko involved at all or the guy just liked it and brought it with him. I suppose I could just google it but i find people really into such things have interesting info on hand.

bardamu · Feb 1, 2020

Dan S
Wow, this thread has taken an ugly turn, with people's quotes being manipulated and taken out of context, and other people being personally attacked. One has to wonder what is going on here.

I have to quote this.
Sad thing.

janice&fred · Feb 1, 2020

pseikotick
The first was from Bedrock,

is this kind of personal rancor and childish name calling your way of discussing watches and reacting to different opinions? Yes my name is Fred and I'm not hiding behind some anonymous username, our icon is myself and my wife and we are personally known by many. Is this a problem for you? People disagree with your opinion of the value of YOUR watch. Don't take it so personal...you started this thread on it's value.

Walrus · Feb 1, 2020

pseikotick
Photos please, Fred. And "rancor" is generally used with issues involving a history of ongoing anger, etc. Your use is questionable.

Walrus, the story is pretty much just that Bill Pogue bought a Seiko at the BX at Ellington AFB in about 1973 then chose to take it with him on Skylab 4. The story goes he hadn't been issued his Speedmaster until just before the flight, so he bought a backup watch, the 6139 6005. This thread is mostly meant to point out that there were several variations that are almost identical but that his specific variant had particular markings and was made during about a one year period.

Interesting, I knew about the variations from the “official Pogue” for lack of a better word I just never took the time to find the meaning behind Pogue or if I did it didn’t stick in my mind. I really never appreciated seiko until the past year or two. I always liked them I just never appreciated all the history and variations. I can definitely see this being an excellent choice to have in the collection. I did run into one at a flea market, may not or probably wasn’t the year in question here but it would have been a great deal as it was on the table for 50 bucks. Might as well have been 1,000 as I only had 20 bucks in cash. Seems to be the only time I run across those crazy deals, when I can’t take advantage of them, oh woe is me.

Anyway thanks for the info. I’ve never seen seiko do any advertising about this. It’s pretty cool, or as we say in my home town wicked pissa

TDBK · Feb 1, 2020

I have a 6139 which I love, but it's a 6139-6030. I've been unable to discover anything authoritative on the difference (other than the model number) between this and a "True Pogue", and I'm also uncertain how correct my watch is as a -6030. I go back and forth on how much I want to upgrade my reference to something with more space authenticity, but it wears well.

Personally, I doubt the "True Pogue" will explode in value, for several reasons: first, there's a lot of similar but not quite "True" watches around, which I think takes some air out of the balloon: someone like myself who likes the watch but who doesn't need 100% authenticity can buy something authentic, correct, and very similar which would take a close examination to distinguish from the real thing. Second, there's a vast number of aftermarket parts which can be very challenging to distinguish from authentic, but the watches aren't valuable enough to support a large community of trusted authenticators/vendors to identify the real stuff. (Even with that community, look at the challenges in the Rolex market.) I think both of these undercut market dynamics, but who knows, it's all handicapping irrational collector behavior.

sxl2004 · Feb 1, 2020

There is no difference between the 6139-60xx models. The different mode numbers indicate the intended market for sale. As far as I know.
Of course over time slight variations happened to all models.

janice&fred · Feb 1, 2020

sxl2004
There is no difference between the 6139-60xx models. The different mode numbers indicate the intended market for sale. As far as I know.
Of course over time slight variations happened to all models.

also bear in mind there is a large bleed-over of market-specific models. we have bought quite a few seikos in the south pacific that were supposedly North American models. It's not hard to imagine inventory was shipped wherever there was a shortage of supply.

efauser · Feb 1, 2020

janice&fred
also bear in mind there is a large bleed-over of market-specific models. we have bought quite a few seikos in the south pacific that were supposedly North American models. It's not hard to imagine inventory was shipped wherever there was a shortage of supply.

Did Hawaii and Guam get NA models? That may explain it.

janice&fred · Feb 1, 2020

I don't have any experience in those places but you're right that might also explain it. the PX stores overseas on some of the massive US military bases might also be a possibility.

Larry S · Feb 1, 2020

Always:

jsducote · Feb 2, 2020

smitty190373
True Pogue is 6139-6005, ideally 1971.

6005 was produced for the U.S.A, while 6002 was being made for the international market.

Except that he didn't buy it in the USA, he bought it on a military base. And while it was a US military base, the supply line for that is not as straightforward as walking into a US jewelers, especially in the early 70s. Further, the only pictures I've seen show it with a French day dial, which doesn't really argue for the US model-variant.

But the real challenge is figuring out what actually flew. Pogue documented that the watch 'evolved' while in his ownership, having changed out parts over the years. While the caseback and movement aren't a guarantee of what flew, as they may also have 'evolved', I'd like to see those (don't believe pictures currently exist) to have a better idea of whether it's the 6002 or the 6005. I believe that anyone stating definitively is fooling themselves.

pseikotick
Great photos of Pogue and company on Skylab. If you look at the last one of just Pogue, you can see that his Seiko is not sporting the replacement bracelet that can be seen in auction photos. It appears to have the factory correct H link non-tapered job it would have had when sold. Another interesting detail from that photo shows the chapter ring still yellow, before it was faded by sunlight as you see in the auction photo. It appears white. The yellow rings commonly faded to white or near white over time.

This is exactly what I mean by the evolution of Pogue's actual watch. What, then, is meant by a True Pogue? The model, variant, and parts that he flew with, or the model, variant, and parts that were auctioned?

Seiko True Pogue has the right stuff to BLAST off

Dan S

SpeedyPhill

Dan S

smitty190373

Flatfoot

smitty190373

Dan S

nickgr

smitty190373

Walrus

bardamu

janice&fred

Walrus

TDBK

sxl2004

janice&fred

efauser

janice&fred

Larry S

jsducote

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