Phillips auction Speedmaster - a 3.000.000-fake?

PerJ · Jun 11, 2023

gatorcpa
“They” also had to know about the prior sale of the watch and the estimates reflected this. You think “they” weren’t wise to the funny business with the bidding? But “they” didn’t care because the commission rose with the price.

I hope the truth is revealed some day, but I know better.
gatorcpa

We all know auction houses. They all consign bullshit watches now and then. That is a separate discussion all along as it happens again and again. I am not certain they spotted parts from previous sales. They are not that great. It was a pretty watch to auction and if they wouldn’t have taken it someone else would.

The issue here is the put-together watch with a fake bridge, the provenance given by Omega enployees and the fact that they cheated Omega out of roughly 2.5m to make a personal profit.

gatorcpa · Jun 11, 2023

P PerJ
It was a pretty watch to auction and if they wouldn’t have taken it someone else would.

And that makes it all right?

Asking for a friend.
gatorcpa

Zapatta · Jun 11, 2023

One party always seems to be involved in shenanigans..

https://perezcope.com/2022/12/31/rolex-daytona-6265-the-unicorn-frankenstein-plot/

PerJ · Jun 11, 2023

gatorcpa
And that makes it all right?

Asking for a friend.
gatorcpa

Knowing what we know now. No. Then? Why not. That Speedmaster was exceptional. Even if relumed and even if the bezel was aftermarket and even put-together. It is beautiful and rare.

Zapatta
One party always seems to be involved in shenanigans..

https://perezcope.com/2022/12/31/rolex-daytona-6265-the-unicorn-frankenstein-plot/

Well, before Jose stopped working with Phillips the main target for his work was Antiqourum. Just scroll back a year or two. The auction scene is often filthy unfortunately.

TimeODanaos · Jun 11, 2023

tyrantlizardrex
I think there’s potentially two separate but related things happening at the same time:

1 - a conspiracy to build a watch and sell it for a lot of money.

2 - some sort of bidding shenanigans by the Big O. Publicly they stopped bidding through the named person at 600,000CHF. If they just wanted to buy it, why did they have someone bidding against them who was ultimately buying it for them?

There’s more than a little weird nonsense going on.

As to the bragging rights/nonsensical comment - you’re not wrong, however I’ve worked in Comms and marketing for a long time… and I have seen a lot of really stupid stuff done in the name of marketing/bragging. Dumb knows no limits

I imagine the corporate air is thick with non-disclosure agreements right now. I would be interested to know from Swiss lawyers (we must have some here) what those count for these days, e.g. whether they can thwart a prosecution or whatever. I don't believe in victimless crimes, so someone must be smarting...

Now "Succession" has finished, there has to be a pitch in here somewhere!

Pastorbottle · Jun 11, 2023

Well until more actual facts are known all this is now pointless speculation.
Investigations must now be free to proceed unfettered by public speculation from those who aren’t witnesses to the case and justice must then take it’s course.
Comment on further developments as they emerge, maybe of some merit, such as in witticisms and the sharing of new details surrounding the case, may have a point, but endless ploughing up the same old bit of dirt is now well and truly redundant and unproductive.
That isn’t to say some public pressure isn’t warranted, it is, as it helps to prevent a quick sweeping of the muck under the carpet, but too much pressure will only clog the gears of justice.

Evitzee · Jun 11, 2023

Just a thought here, but if the Ref 2915 was so groundbreaking in its design (steel tachy bezel, et al) wouldn't someone in Omega management back in the hazy-lazy-crazy days of summer ca 1957 thought 'hey, pull one of these watches aside and keep it as a reference for the future'? These were not expensive watches so they would't tie up a lot of capital, it's not Patek Philippe quality, or of precious metal. Production cost was <$100, about $1,000 in todays dollars. Instead they cranked these out and sent them around the world without holding one back for reference. So when did Omega start keeping at least one new example of each Speedmaster? Probably not for a long time. They didn't seem to have one to model the Ed White 321 case after.

gatorcpa · Jun 11, 2023

Pastorbottle
Well until more actual facts are known all this is now pointless speculation.

The issue here is that it is highly doubtful that there will ever be any more actual facts to know.

IMHO, this case will never see the inside of any courtroom in Switzerland or anywhere else. The reputations that were ruined will stay that way. Omega may or may not display the watch in question. The auction commissions have been paid.

Nothing to see here folks, let’s move on.

Except that leopards don’t change their spots. These things will continue to happen in high end auctions until there are consequences to all the bad actors, not just some of them.
gatorcpa

kaplan · Jun 11, 2023

Omega being in on it really doesn't make sense, one could just auction an actually authentic watch, get it to 5M, pay the 1M in commissions, and have a genuine publicity stunt, no need to counterfeit etc.

gatorcpa · Jun 11, 2023

kaplan
Omega being in on it really doesn't make sense, one could just auction an actually authentic watch, get it to 5M, pay the 1M in commissions, and have a genuine publicity stunt, no need to counterfeit etc.

Yes, you are correct, except the authentic watch doesn’t exist. Omega having shill bidders is OK?

Why not just buy it before the auction and be done with it?

Again, what we know doesn’t add up, but it is likely all we will ever know. Too many people stand to be embarrassed if the real truth is ever disclosed.
gatorcpa

kaplan · Jun 11, 2023

I always saw everything related to the Swatch Speedmaster as a publicity stunt too, so while not ok, wouldn’t hurt anyone

You miss my actual point though, people claim Omega is in on it, seems delirious if they are

tyrantlizardrex · Jun 11, 2023

kaplan
I always saw everything related to the Swatch Speedmaster as a publicity stunt too, so while not ok, wouldn’t hurt anyone

You miss my actual point though, people claim Omega is in on it, seems delirious if they are

If the don’t disclose the entire truth of what has gone on, whilst hanging one person out to dry, then they are in on something.

gatorcpa · Jun 11, 2023

kaplan
You miss my actual point though, people claim Omega is in on it, seems delirious if they are

I didn’t miss it at all.

Look, if Omega was an innocent victim here, they would have quietly fired all responsible the day after the auction, or at least after the watch was examined by a non-conspirator. We would have known nothing.

That press release just smells of a coverup.
gatorcpa

Archer · Jun 11, 2023

Either Omega “comes clean” and admits they were in on it, or they don’t and it’s all a big cover up, proving they were in on it...

Yep, makes total sense... ::facepalm1::

PerJ · Jun 11, 2023

gatorcpa
I didn’t miss it at all.

Look, if Omega was an innocent victim here, they would have quietly fired all responsible the day after the auction, or at least after the watch was examined by a non-conspirator. We would have known nothing.

That press release just smells of a coverup.
gatorcpa

The people involved does not go to work like normal. The HoM is ”out of office” and the senior person sued does not have Omega as title on his LinkedIn. I would guess the third person is gone too. Omega probably waits until this is settled to officially let them go.

watchyouwant · Jun 11, 2023

I've never seen that massive amount of assumptions , conspiracy theories and speculation here. These grievances seem to point to the changed conditions for our beloved Hobby; Watch collecting being overtaken by Investors, numerous Bloogers to hammer home the financials first and bringing the humble Collector to his knees with ever rising prices for his planned acquisitions. Auction houses , Oligarchs, Crooks , Government Money printing and previous zero interest rates on one side of the Culprits. Sky high prices for strange Brands and well known ones pushed through by Auction Houses, fuelling an obscure " demand ". On the other Hand: " Normal " Watches can not be sold . Therefore we can not buy Watches we like. It's all artificial in the moment. Profit's rise for the big boys; taxes rise for the others. Because the big boys don't pay taxes. And back to the subject: Yes, Omega had more than one 2915 in the Museum stock in the late 1990's, when I was invited behind the Museum scene. And that makes this 3 Mio one just something incomplete with a brown dial. Still short of the 17+ Mio Paul Newman, Rolex can show ...

TDBK · Jun 11, 2023

If I was writing the movie script, I'd totally include the plot twist that the conspirators set up the scam to take $300K from the museum but their plans were upset when two bidders fall in love with the watch and raise it to an attention-grabbing $3M, initially seemingly to be an amazing windfall but quickly proving to lead to their doom.

Regardless, 🍿

redpcar · Jun 11, 2023

My script: Omega sr. management finds out the truth of the watch just before the auction. Omega gives the go ahead to purchase at any cost. Omega squashes any more publicity by executing NDAs and firing all employees involved. Let's call it a short story.

texasmade · Jun 11, 2023

gatorcpa
I didn’t miss it at all.

Look, if Omega was an innocent victim here, they would have quietly fired all responsible the day after the auction, or at least after the watch was examined by a non-conspirator. We would have known nothing.

That press release just smells of a coverup.
gatorcpa

I’m not an expert on European labor laws, but I don’t think Omega can just fire everyone that quickly. Even in texas which is an at will state, you can’t just fire ppl that quickly. There has to be documentation, investigation, HR, legal, etc done before firing someone. Most of Europe has even stronger labor laws than Texas, so I’m going to guess Omega couldn’t just ax everyone that quickly.

pdxleaf · Jun 11, 2023

texasmade
I’m not an expert on European labor laws, but I don’t think Omega can just fire everyone that quickly. Even in texas which is an at will state, you can’t just fire ppl that quickly. There has to be documentation, investigation, HR, legal, etc done before firing someone. Most of Europe has even stronger labor laws than Texas, so I’m going to guess Omega couldn’t just ax everyone that quickly.

This is where I'm at. Much of the conjection seems to be based on a small run company. I know next to nothing about how Omega is run. Having acknowledged that, I would think that it's more like a typical corporation. There are often 2 or 3 layers of management between workers and execs. There are risk committees, strategy committees, finance, all kinds of scorecards, internal audit, etc... It's really hard to understand how this happened. There was a major failure in their governance. Plus they answer to Swatch. We haven't heard from Swatch, but I can't imagine there haven't been a lot of meetings over this at HQ. At the same time, it is hard to comprehend how a whole group of management at Omega collaborated together on a scheme like this. What company can keep a secret like this? Surely there would be some people who would stand up and say this is nuts. It's easier for me to think there were a couple close knit guys who had insufficient oversight.

But that's the thing about these stories, truth is stranger than fiction. It's hard not to wonder what kind of management could allow this to happen, either as an active participant or a very sloppy governance.

Phillips auction Speedmaster - a 3.000.000-fake?

PerJ

gatorcpa

Zapatta

PerJ

TimeODanaos

Pastorbottle

Evitzee

gatorcpa

kaplan

gatorcpa

kaplan

tyrantlizardrex

gatorcpa

Archer

PerJ

watchyouwant

TDBK

redpcar

texasmade

pdxleaf

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