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dx009
·Out of interest, what in your opinion makes the Longines watches "legit"? Delivered to Baume in the UK. Always willing to learn as it seems little is known about PAF watches.
Pakistan Air Force Seamaster
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Subspecies
·Don't know the answer but would suggest running this on MWR and see what comes up. Personally I would avoid until positive info appeared (or not).
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watchyouwant
·Look, that is British engraving . Not PAF engraving, which was done in Pakistan for ALL PAF watches of this Type. Look at the Numeral Seven. the Pakistani Seven is 2 straight strokes. Nothing curved, like the british Seven. the Pakistani Numeral One has the little downstroke at the Top. This reference is reserved for the British WW2 Alloy Middle Longines Pilots Watch. The very first ones were all stainless steel, but had earlier movement numbers. So, a very healthy Question Mark is in order; even for the MWR Example. Kind regards. Achim
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watchyouwant
·I'm not an expert on those watches. I just read what others post. Some people are very knowledgeable. Moreso those Longines watches actually have legit markings and they can also be traced back using archives and various other paperwork. There's also a couple of particularities that, usually, military watches of the era had...
That is not a problem. Many Military Surplus watches were given to Pakistan after the War. British engravings were erased and Pakistani Stock Numbers engraved. with the typical Pakistani Numerals. that`s why they can show up as British Delivery. Most famous case were the Panerai`s, given to Pakistan . complete with a Cache of Spare parts and even Watchmakers tools to open the backs for service. Panerai designed Tools. Plus a watchmakers Lathe. And after the Service they were decommissioned . Until one Surplus assigned soldier offered one privately to an Pakistani born British Watchdealer and the first 3 Panerai`s changed hands in a private Deal. the Soldier could not believe , what he got for that old junk. But his commanding Officer heard that and took charge . asked 10 fold, got ten fold and both sides were laughing all the way to the Bank. Military Watches can be Fun...... kind regards. achim
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dx009
·That is not a problem. Many Military Surplus watches were given to Pakistan after the War. British engravings were erased and Pakistani Stock Numbers engraved. with the typical Pakistani Numerals. that`s why they can show up as British Delivery. Most famous case were the Panerai`s, given to Pakistan . complete with a Cache of Spare parts and even Watchmakers tools to open the backs for service. Panerai designed Tools. Plus a watchmakers Lathe. And after the Service they were decommissioned . Until one Surplus assigned soldier offered one privately to an Pakistani born British Watchdealer and the first 3 Panerai`s changed hands in a private Deal. the Soldier could not believe , what he got for that old junk. But his commanding Officer heard that and took charge . asked 10 fold, got ten fold and both sides were laughing all the way to the Bank. Military Watches can be Fun...... kind regards. achim
Usually Swiss watches were and still are at the top when it comes to all things horological. What I don't understand is how come watches from the highest regarded swiss brands were bought/issued/used by army personnel of poor/underdeveloped/developing countries ?
In the end, were these watches only issued to top brass and, perhaps, elite troops (such as aviators or special forces) ? Is corruption and vanity involved in this whole thing ? (i.e. buying really expensive but useless things for select people instead of using funds for more necessary things such as modernization/training/etc. ? If this Omega is indeed genuine, I don't see it being proper for active combat troops whether on the ground or in the air so was this more of a gift from some dictator to top army personnel ?
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watchyouwant
·That Omega is not Military issued. And it is a cheap model. Kind regards. Achim
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gemini4
··Hoarder Of Speed et aliaSpeaking of this subject I've always been curious about one thing.
Usually Swiss watches were and still are at the top when it comes to all things horological. What I don't understand is how come watches from the highest regarded swiss brands were bought/issued/used by army personnel of poor/underdeveloped/developing countries ?
In the end, were these watches only issued to top brass and, perhaps, elite troops (such as aviators or special forces) ? Is corruption and vanity involved in this whole thing ? (i.e. buying really expensive but useless things for select people instead of using funds for more necessary things such as modernization/training/etc. ? If this Omega is indeed genuine, I don't see it being proper for active combat troops whether on the ground or in the air so was this more of a gift from some dictator to top army personnel ?
These military issued watches are only expensive today, decades later, because idiots like us WANT them.
@watchyouwant posted this price list for the 2914 Railmaster/Flightmaster issued only in Peru.....$45 USD. Damn, where did I park that time machine?😀
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dx009
·I know that watches have gone up in value insanely (in some cases) but there are 2 things to consider here:
1. inflation. 45$ today does not equate to 45$ 50-60 years ago. Back then 45$ was worth a lot more.
2. Peru wasn't a highly developed nation (they still have plenty of problems to this day) so, 45$ was most definitely not a small sum of money.
So, again I ask, was this corruption/vanity or did they pay quite a bit of money for watches that they actually used in their various jobs ? Or maybe a combination of both... I just don't see how and why would undeveloped nations buy these watches and not cheaper ones (maybe locally produced). That's why I'm curious as to who actually received/bought them.
1. inflation. 45$ today does not equate to 45$ 50-60 years ago. Back then 45$ was worth a lot more.
2. Peru wasn't a highly developed nation (they still have plenty of problems to this day) so, 45$ was most definitely not a small sum of money.
So, again I ask, was this corruption/vanity or did they pay quite a bit of money for watches that they actually used in their various jobs ? Or maybe a combination of both... I just don't see how and why would undeveloped nations buy these watches and not cheaper ones (maybe locally produced). That's why I'm curious as to who actually received/bought them.
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watchyouwant
·I know that watches have gone up in value insanely (in some cases) but there are 2 things to consider here:
1. inflation. 45$ today does not equate to 45$ 50-60 years ago. Back then 45$ was worth a lot more.
2. Peru wasn't a highly developed nation (they still have plenty of problems to this day) so, 45$ was most definitely not a small sum of money.
So, again I ask, was this corruption/vanity or did they pay quite a bit of money for watches that they actually used in their various jobs ? Or maybe a combination of both... I just don't see how and why would undeveloped nations buy these watches and not cheaper ones (maybe locally produced). That's why I'm curious as to who actually received/bought them.
Wrong. Peru issued Rolex Chronographs for their AirForce. Time to read a bit more......The only Country , that issued cheap watches for their Forces, was the USA. Kind regards.Achim
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dx009
·I'm not asking what they issued. I'm asking HOW COME they've issued such expensive/premium watches ? And to whom. Active combat personnel or top brass (generals, admirals, etc.).
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size11s
·Look, that is British engraving . Not PAF engraving, which was done in Pakistan for ALL PAF watches of this Type. Look at the Numeral Seven. the Pakistani Seven is 2 straight strokes. Nothing curved, like the british Seven. the Pakistani Numeral One has the little downstroke at the Top. This reference is reserved for the British WW2 Alloy Middle Longines Pilots Watch. The very first ones were all stainless steel, but had earlier movement numbers. So, a very healthy Question Mark is in order; even for the MWR Example. Kind regards. Achim
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padders
··Oooo subtitles!Britain has also issued complete crap to all its forces since about 1980. The Pakistanis wouldn’t want surplus G10s.
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Dan S
·I'm not asking what they issued. I'm asking HOW COME they've issued such expensive/premium watches ? And to whom. Active combat personnel or top brass (generals, admirals, etc.).
Watches were a necessary tool for some professions, including some military roles. The cost was not cheap by the standards of the time, and watches were not disposable as they are today. But they were needed, and there was basically no alternative. You are interpreting them as "expensive/premium" based on your modern perspective, because you think of these brands as prestigious, but these brands made the full range of watches, and the Swiss watches made for the military were often quite utilitarian and cheap compared to civilian watches. Militaries often issued requirements for their watches, and various companies bid to meet the specifications. Also, people (and the military) carefully maintained and preserved these tools, they didn't treat them as disposable.
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Uscjake87
·As far as modern day US Army goes, units can still order watches with an NSN code. You simply have to face the wrath of the upper echelon bosses who think watches are not useful for a job. We finally convinced my bosses to order us GPS watches to help with keeping pace on ruck marches. I have seen some Marathon brand dive watches that were bought through military channels. I can just imagine how much leadership would lose their mind if we scored a rolex or any watch worth more than a few hundred dollars. That is what makes this post funny to me. Ground crews getting an Omega? Yeah right.
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flyingdoormat
·Just reviving this thread which I found when researching PAF Omega watches. One of the Longines referenced in a MWR link above is mine and I recently purchased an Omega with PAF engraving from the seller referred to throughout this thread. Watch is from 1984, model 166.0209 with a cal 1020 movement. Wasn't what I call expensive but the intention was to purchase an Extract of Archives to verify were the watch was delivered. Pleased to say delivery was to the Pakistan Air Forces so maybe this will change the minds of some people here as to the authenticity of the watch. I'm not saying it's a great watch and I paid accordingly. I've learnt never to just assume something isn't when with proof it can be. Who knows why or to who these watches were issued within the PAF but obviously they served a purpose. The Extract of Archives also mentioned the watch dial was black with luminous indexes (radium) which it obviously is not. When I questioned Omega about this they replied and confirmed the watch left their facilities in Biel, Switzerland with a black dial with radium indexes and assume the dial was replaced at a later date. I assume it is a re-dial but I did notice that at where the 27 minute marker should be there is a yellowy green rectangular shape which appears to be lume. Any thoughts would be welcome
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size11s
·Indeed....never say never is a good maxim for sure. Congrats in going for the EoA and thanks for sharing the info.
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padders
··Oooo subtitles!So Omega are saying they fitted a Radium lume dial to a 1984 watch? That suggests to me a cockup on the extract since that just would not have happened. Tritium lume maybe but no watch left Bienne after about 1962 with Radium on the dial AFAIK, for military or otherwise.
I am not saying I think the watch wasn't delivered to the PAF, it may well have been* but extract mistakes are more common than many think. Yours raises more questions than it answers and IMO doesn't add the clarity and value you were perhaps hoping it might. At the end of the day it is a mildly more interesting version of a very uninteresting watch from the Omega Dark Ages.
*though you will note my cynicism earlier in the thread about who utilised it. There is no service number so it probably wasn't 'issued' as such even if legit.
I am not saying I think the watch wasn't delivered to the PAF, it may well have been* but extract mistakes are more common than many think. Yours raises more questions than it answers and IMO doesn't add the clarity and value you were perhaps hoping it might. At the end of the day it is a mildly more interesting version of a very uninteresting watch from the Omega Dark Ages.
*though you will note my cynicism earlier in the thread about who utilised it. There is no service number so it probably wasn't 'issued' as such even if legit.
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flyingdoormat
·In the question I asked I suggested that I didn’t believe radium would be used especially in a watch from 1984 but this is how they responded. I would have preferred the response to say grey dial non-luminous. As for service numbers I have yet to see a PAF watch of any style or make with nothing but a movement number inscribed which I assume is the service number. I know mistakes are made but I find it amusing that whenever there is doubt as to authenticity of a watch everyone screams for an E of A for proof but when provided cast doubt on it suggesting Omega got it wrong. Finally I admit this isn’t Omega’s finest but I believes point needed to be made to confirm this watch and others similar were issued and served a purpose for the PAF even if they didn’t go to the moon
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padders
··Oooo subtitles!As for service numbers I have yet to see a PAF watch of any style or make with nothing but a movement number inscribed which I assume is the service number.
By service number I meant something to tie the watch to an individual airman, or something noting that it was taken into stock like a NATO number or similar*, restamping the movement number on the outside of the case doesn't really count, in fact Omega themselves have done it since about 1990.
I do take your point about the extract. At the end of the day you have confirmation that your watch was delivered to the PAF. The issue is of course that yours and many others which are similar (indicating a batch were sent) do not and maybe never did have a black radium lume dial. I put that down to a confusion in the archives where data from an earlier bacthes of perhaps Seamaster/Railmasters were sent. I am on your side. Is it not better that Omega made a mistake than you have a butchered Franken? This is a bit like the Ultraman situation, Omega clearly have some data, but it's not clear how accurate that data is and as such it is difficult to have confidence since there are strong suspicions they have been making it up as they go along.
*yes I know Pakistan aren't in NATO, I meant a stock number like a Quartermaster would use
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Franco
·All the PAF watches I ever saw (Citizen, Tissot, Omega) had a broad arrow engraved (long or short tail); this is not a broad arrow. Feels fake to me.
Not sure why a broadarrow should be there, these were not MOD issued. The procurement was no longer with British MOD after 1956. My Railmaster PAF has no arrows:
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