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Omega Lemania Seamaster Soccer

matthewt
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I recently came across this watch. Its a bit strange and has me asking loads of questions.
Case ref is 145.019 and an Additional 9658 (Seamaster Soccer ??)
Looks like Omega Makers Triangle has been removed from inside caseback
Caseback has no External Omega markings
Movement is a Lemania 1873
Dial Branded Troy-Piguet
Has an original Omega Plexi
Had a cross hatched crown, not and omega crown
Dial has no "Swiss Made"
Hand set looks to be that on a Lemania 1872

What is this????

Screenshot 2021-07-26 at 12.17.08.png Screenshot 2021-07-26 at 12.17.32.png Screenshot 2021-07-26 at 12.17.20.png Screenshot 2021-07-26 at 12.17.47.png Screenshot 2021-07-26 at 12.18.35.png
 
tyrantlizardrex
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Seamaster Chronstop case/Bezel from the look of it.

Bitsa? White label Lemania creation for whoever Troy-Piguet were?
 
MRC
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matthewt matthewt
Thanks so much, great information.....
..... and all I did was type troy-piguet into Google and page down a bit. 😉

Other search sites are available, but sadly they don't have Google's breadth of data despite (sometimes) better ethics.
 
machamp6650
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There's a Lemania branded version that's almost exactly the same (pic below not mine); I've seen a few examples of this one floating around so doesn't appear to be a one-off parts build (google Lemania 9658 for a bunch). Looks to be from the days where a lot of Lemania-based watches were rebranded to different makers

f1f7f9e0-79e4-4954-8ca8-239398d376d9.jpg
Edited:
 
matthewt
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MRC MRC
..... and all I did was type troy-piguet into Google and page down a bit. 😉

Other search sites are available, but sadly they don't have Google's breadth of data despite (sometimes) better ethics.
This is actually my sons site and he wrote the info on Troy Piguet. I was looking more for the reason that there was so much of an Omega watch in something that was more than likely made by Lemania in the mid 70's. The lack of swiss made often signifies a once off or prototype (Prior to it going into mass production). The removal of the Omega triangle inside the caseback.....was this done by Lemania or by Omega (Possibly old Omega parts were purchased by Lemania). I was also hoping someone may be able to shed a bit more light on the relationship between Lemania and Omega at the time.
 
matthewt
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machamp6650 machamp6650
There's a Lemania branded version that's almost exactly the same (pic below not mine); I've seen a few examples of this one floating around so doesn't appear to be a one-off parts build (google Lemania 9658 for a bunch). Looks to be from the days where a lot of Lemania-based watches were rebranded to different makers

f1f7f9e0-79e4-4954-8ca8-239398d376d9.jpg
Thanks a mill for your response. I did see this one, and believe it to be"ALL" Lemania. I was just curious as to why there was so much of an omega watch in the Troy-Piguet,........why was it not like the above one with no Omega references inside the caseback and why would the Troy-Piguet not have "Swiss made" on the dial? Perhaps it was just a sample, presented to the retailer for approval prior to manufacture?
 
sirtaifun
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matthewt matthewt
Perhaps it was just a sample, presented to the retailer for approval prior to manufacture?
In that case there would be no branding on the dial.
 
matthewt
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sirtaifun sirtaifun
In that case there would be no branding on the dial.
I disagree, Here is a picture of a SAAF prototype presented to the SAAF in 1980. The branding/Lemania is on the prototype. I would guess they would like to see the completed watch with branding and all, before placing any orders.
Screenshot 2021-07-27 at 07.42.44.png
 
sirtaifun
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Then it`s no prototype in the meaning of "prototype" thats the first examples just before production run.
 
matthewt
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sirtaifun sirtaifun
Then it`s no prototype in the meaning of "prototype" thats the first examples just before production run.
Agree, but that's a technicality........but,.........you could also refer to the last sample before production as the prototype. Visually correct, but components and case markings not final.
 
sirtaifun
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I disagree but without decent proof/paperwork or stuff alike it will be impossible to get a real clue what exactly happend back in the days.
 
matthewt
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sirtaifun sirtaifun
I disagree but without decent proof/paperwork or stuff alike it will be impossible to get a real clue what exactly happend back in the days.
PROTOTYPE:
"the first example of something, such as a machine or other industrial product, from which all later forms are developed".
It really makes no difference to me what it ends up being (Prototype, sample, franken watch....etc etc), i'm just curious as to why this watch ended up this way....Perhaps there are other collectors on the forum that have had a watch with a similar story...........
 
sirtaifun
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matthewt matthewt
PROTOTYPE:
"the first example of something, such as a machine or other industrial product, from which all later forms are developed".
Thats right.
But your example isn`t I`ve seen several real prototype in person but I have no real proof eather but they are unbranded `cause the manufacturer show them to potential customers and it would make no sense to make a prototype branded for each customer.
Maybe an african manufacturer with only one customer is a different story and maybe that is a reason for the Swiss Made missing.

matthewt matthewt
It really makes no difference to me what it ends up being (Prototype, sample, franken watch....etc etc), i'm just curious as to why this watch ended up this way....Perhaps there are other collectors on the forum that have had a watch with a similar story...........
That would be a cool thing.
 
machamp6650
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matthewt matthewt
This is actually my sons site and he wrote the info on Troy Piguet. I was looking more for the reason that there was so much of an Omega watch in something that was more than likely made by Lemania in the mid 70's. The lack of swiss made often signifies a once off or prototype (Prior to it going into mass production). The removal of the Omega triangle inside the caseback.....was this done by Lemania or by Omega (Possibly old Omega parts were purchased by Lemania). I was also hoping someone may be able to shed a bit more light on the relationship between Lemania and Omega at the time.

I'd probably call in a member like @Northernman at this point, he's the boss of Lemania around here AFAIK 😀 But I believe the same group owned omega and lemania around that time, and there was a lot of shared use of parts between those two brands and a number of affiliate brands. The case in this thread is double stamped for both omega (145.029) and lemania (9658) refs so there's clearly intention of multiple uses, similar to the 9655 / 145.016 relationship. It's not clear to me who might be considered the first or original ref owner for these cases ie omega or lemania.

As for the lack of 'swiss made', I can't be certain but have a really close look at the bottom of the dial before the inner bezel - is that a hint of writing I see? Personally my guess is that the familiar markings are there but obscured by the large inner bezel.
 
Delroyb
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As an aside, I have a bunch of Geneve Chronostop cases that were used by Cyma for an early LED watch offering, pusher replaced with a inset one for setting the time and the crown tube blanked off. Omega ground off inside, but ref no's still there.
 
matthewt
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machamp6650 machamp6650
I'd probably call in a member like @Northernman at this point, he's the boss of Lemania around here AFAIK 😀 But I believe the same group owned omega and lemania around that time, and there was a lot of shared use of parts between those two brands and a number of affiliate brands. The case in this thread is double stamped for both omega (145.029) and lemania (9658) refs so there's clearly intention of multiple uses, similar to the 9655 / 145.016 relationship. It's not clear to me who might be considered the first or original ref owner for these cases ie omega or lemania.

As for the lack of 'swiss made', I can't be certain but have a really close look at the bottom of the dial before the inner bezel - is that a hint of writing I see? Personally my guess is that the familiar markings are there but obscured by the large inner bezel.
Thanks a mill for your response, and think you are right re the multiple use parts between brands that were already quite "close". As for the swiss made, i had the movement out the case and it is definitely missing all together. I was really just curious as to what happened in the manufacture process as Troy-Piguet was a small South African watch retailer and had links to lemania in the 70's and 80's. I have also found very few numbers of these "Troy" branded watches. Perhaps they were small orders from Omega vs Lemania or Vice versa.....??
 
Northernman
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matthewt matthewt
Thanks a mill for your response, and think you are right re the multiple use parts between brands that were already quite "close". As for the swiss made, i had the movement out the case and it is definitely missing all together. I was really just curious as to what happened in the manufacture process as Troy-Piguet was a small South African watch retailer and had links to lemania in the 70's and 80's. I have also found very few numbers of these "Troy" branded watches. Perhaps they were small orders from Omega vs Lemania or Vice versa.....??

Hi!

I have seen several "Troy-Lemania" around. Including regular timers. Having local companies on your side was often an advantage when fighting for military/gov. contracts. My best guess is that this is the main reason for the Troy connection in SA.

Omega and Lemania was, together with Tissot and others, in the same group of companies from the 1930s up into the 1980s.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Société_Suisse_pour_l'Industrie_Horlogère
Lemania was sold off in the early 1980s as a part of a plan to save the group from bankruptcy following the "quartz crisis", and the group later formed the basis of todays Swatch Group.

To your main question:
During the times within SSHI, Lemania made all chronorgraph movments, and most completed chronograph watches for all the brands within the group, Omega included.
Omega did not have any "in-house" chronograph production until later (caliber 861 production equipment was transferred to Omega at some point in time after Lemania was sold off during the 1980s.

For tool/military watches there are several examples of dual references. The same applies for a few civilian models as well.
Most cases was exclusive for Omega, Tissot or Lemania, but some was used for all.
After Lemania was sold out from SSHI, Lemania was seemingly left with stocks of various cases and movements. I have a couple of examples where Omega brands have been ground out, and Lemania references added. Same case, but as the companies was at that time no longer within the same group, any ties had to be removed prior to sale. Times was hard in Switzerland during the 80s.... 😉

Cheers!
 
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