OMEGA Apollo-Soyuz: The hidden truths

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Posted on the 'Register' thread by
TsoloT:
I have commented on this controversy and am in agreement with the Italian collector and the offering from base1000
The rest is unsupported speculation which on close examination doesn’t provide anything other than doubt as to the veracity of the explanation

Anyone who’s had the benefit of looking at the system of manufacture in Omegas Archives Is aware that they use the LIFO SYSTEM So in carrying out an enquiry into the manufacturing sequence of the controversial involvement of the Marchi ,researchers would realise that as the Di Marchi movement numbers were earlier the Watches were made earlier as a later batch of movement numbers would follow a later batch later unless they never made any more of that movement

So the only story now convergent with the facts is that Di marchi made the first batch of 100 and because of the increase demand for the watch production reverted to Omega for the last 400 NOT the other way around

This cannot be contrverted as custom and practice in production supports this sequence

Hence the reason no subsequent records exist for the missing 100 as they were made and delivered previously

A priori must be applied in this type of hard copy vacuum


As a concise, logical sum-up this has much going for it.

I think the problem remaining is that however credible the theory may seem, if a contemporaneous record of such circumstances does not alreadyexist in (any) manufacturer's archives, no one could expect (any) manufacturer to acknowledge it as a 'truth.' Therefore I'm afraid that forum member AS will not be able to achieve his apparent objective of getting his watch 'blessed' as of direct Omega manufacture. That's why I feel he'd be better to let it go rather than to continue to stress himself with an unwinnable battle.

If, however, he - as does someone like me with no skin in the game - enjoys the correspondence/debate on an intellectual basis, that's fine.
 
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Dear @TsoloT and @davy26,
You could also disagree with me but continuing to invite me and others to "settle" the statements that Omega told us all these years, I'm sorry but I will never do that!

Things have gone as I described them in my last post!
The Maison DeMarchi could not do everything alone, she needed Omega's help. I repeat the concept that:

Some Omega’s dealership at the time, some of them still open, remember that the Omega Apollo – Soyouz watches were already in the shops during the space mission USA – URSS in July 17th 1975.

I confirm that there is no evidence of the existence of 100 watches manufactured by the Maison De marchi!
I do not pretend that my watch is considered an Apollo-Soyuz, because it is not like that!
My watch is a Pre-Apollo-Soyuz and has been regularly purchased at an official Omega dealer and not at a Chinese stall!

Before the official release of the Apollo-Soyuz, 30/40 Pre-Apollo-Soyuz were produced. And this operation, without the help of Omega CH, would not have been possible!

Then it is very likely that Maison DeMarchi, with spare parts at its disposal, has created and sold 2 or 3 Apollo-Soyuz watches, but not 100!

But now, coming out of this discussion for a moment, I ask you what sense it has, to incite us to take it out and to be content with the statements of Omega? Do You say you agree with the statements of BASE100?
BASE100, before saying his idea, read e-mails exchanged between an Italian collector and Mr. Brandon. This thing is reported in several steps of his posts. Do you think who is that collector? It's always me! All the emails I had published on my first website, available to everyone. So it's not true that we all waste time ... if you think this, then this Forum does not make any sense ...
 
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I wonder if I could invite @Apollo-Soyuz to state (or even re-state!) his position as from the post above I am very confused.

How Many Apollo Soyuz models were produced?
By Omega?
By DeMarchi?

Thank you!
 
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I wonder if I could invite @Apollo-Soyuz to state (or even re-state!) his position as from the post above I am very confused.

How Many Apollo Soyuz models were produced?
By Omega?
By DeMarchi?

Thank you!
I believe re-state would be more appropriate William. I asked the same question 3 pages ago. @Apollo-Soyuz believes they were all the work of De Marchi in Italy. Although going by the above statement I am not entirely sure?
My previous post.
"There seems to be quite a difference of opinion between the two main protagonists in this thread. @@lowen states 400 watches were produced and assembled by Omega in Biel and @@Apollo-Soyuz is adamant 500 were all assembled in Italy by De Marchi."
 
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I wonder if I could invite @Apollo-Soyuz to state (or even re-state!) his position as from the post above I am very confused.

How Many Apollo Soyuz models were produced?
By Omega?
By DeMarchi?

Thank you!

Pre-Apollo-Soyuz watches were made and marketed during the eponymous space mission.

30/40 Omega Pre-Apollo-Soyuz watches were presented to the Italian market in 1975.

In 1976 the official production of the 400 Omega Apollo-Soyuz began.

Using some Omega spare parts, left in the workshops of the Maison DeMarchi, it is very likely that between 1980 and 1981 the Maison DeMarchi was able to make some watches (2 or 3 pcs) Apollo-Soyuz-Demarchi.

Thanks to the testimonies of some Omega dealers of the period I came to these conclusions.
 
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Pre-Apollo-Soyuz watches were made and marketed during the eponymous space mission.

30/40 Omega Pre-Apollo-Soyuz watches were presented to the Italian market in 1975.

In 1976 the official production of the 400 Omega Apollo-Soyuz began.

Using some Omega spare parts, left in the workshops of the Maison DeMarchi, it is very likely that between 1980 and 1981 the Maison DeMarchi was able to make some watches (2 or 3 pcs) Apollo-Soyuz-Demarchi.

Thanks to the testimonies of some Omega dealers of the period I came to these conclusions.

And what number is yours again?
 
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And what number is yours again?

The case back is the most complex, Here a world opens up!

We know that the Apollo-Soyuz watches (Pre-A / S, officers and DeMarchi) with the number movements:

-31.316.xxx (mine!)

-39.180.860 (beginning A-S)

-45.585.460 (unofficially the last A-S DeMarchi)

They do not have the pads engraved with the number 1 or 500!

How strange!

Until now there are no clear news on this, no document that can confirm one or the other version. The same Omega CH, to this question, always risks faint ...

This particular and unique accessory needed the fundamental help of the Maison DeMarchi. These would have had to engrave the progressive numbers of the Apollo-Soyuz limited series on the various pads coming from Omega CH.
Until now we all agree!

It could have happened that the Maison DeMarchi has started to affect the case back that came from Omega CH but, when the time came for the final assembly of the watches, the Maison DeMarchi did not respect the correct combination of the case back-movement thus creating further doubts and questions to those already known ... or it supports that theory that someone has confirmed that in the 70s, things were not done too accurately ...
 
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it's getting harder and harder to sort out the facts from the speculation in this thread....there seem to be few of the former and a lot of the latter.
 
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it's getting harder and harder to sort out the facts from the speculation in this thread....there seem to be few of the former and a lot of the latter.

I only saw interpretations, no facts whatsoever...
 
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I only saw interpretations, no facts whatsoever...

We are getting there....Now I am only trying to see what actual evidence there is for the theory that Demarchi created watches that can be considered as equal value and desirability as the numbered watches for which Omega will give an extract:


Pre-Apollo-Soyuz watches were made and marketed during the eponymous space mission.

30/40 Omega Pre-Apollo-Soyuz watches were presented to the Italian market in 1975. Assembled by whom? What is the source evidence?

In 1976 the official production of the 400 Omega Apollo-Soyuz began. What is the source of the information, what caseback numbers?

Using some Omega spare parts, left in the workshops of the Maison DeMarchi, it is very likely that between 1980 and 1981 the Maison DeMarchi was able to make some watches (2 or 3 pcs) Apollo-Soyuz-Demarchi. Why would these be considered anything other than watches assembled from spare parts, is there some evidence of sanction?

Thanks to the testimonies of some Omega dealers of the period I came to these conclusions.
 
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As far as I know no one has a record of the case back serial numbers ...the untenable explanation given for the case backs with no numbers is that they were lightly printed and wore off ...speculation

No one knows where the missing 100 Watches were made and whether it was before or after the Omega produced 400..the invoice for which merely says Apollo stainless steel Watches , there is no LE serial number list either

No one has produced an invoice for 100 movements delivered to Di Marchi nor has anyone produced all or any documentation for the 100 Soyuz dials case backs and alleged 5.5 mm special pushers or how they came about or where they went

The other claimed fact is there were 500 produced ...where did that number come from ?

In any event people are reliant upon the archives for verification which is something of an inexactitude as it was very common for a ubiquitous movement like the 145.0022 to be swapped out in its entirety if there was a problem when the watch was sent for service

So the only thing that can be accomplished with any degree of certainty is to look at the watch ,confirm it’s visually a Soyuz having the dial, case back and modified case band /case, and probably the 1168/633 bracelet ,and then invite Omega to certify it as a Soyuz which was produced for or by Omega

Res ipsa loquitor is a well founded principle of logic and law meaning let the facts speak for themselves ...can’t think of a more apposite case for its application
 
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We are getting there....Now I am only trying to see what actual evidence there is for the theory that Demarchi created watches that can be considered as equal value and desirability as the numbered watches for which Omega will give an extract:
Please advise as to where the extract of archive shows what numbered watch goes with what s/n on which movement...I had understood that that wasn’t possible ?
Would love to see that
Thank you
 
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We are getting there....Now I am only trying to see what actual evidence there is for the theory that Demarchi created watches that can be considered as equal value and desirability as the numbered watches for which Omega will give an extract:

I reiterate the concept that I do not have the truth in my pocket but after 6 years of research and analysis I think this is a plausible explanation.

First Answer
Given that during the space mission some watches were already present in the Italian Omega dealerships. it is very likely that Omega CH produced N pcs Pre-Apollo-Soyuz and that the Maison DeMarchi took care of the assembly and distribution. EXCLUDES CATEGORICALLY THAT THE MAISON DEMARCHI HAS PRODUCED WATCHES, movements bracelets, dials, WITHOUT THE HELP OF OMEGA CH!
Maybe it was just a test to understand the reactions of the Italian market?
I can not know this!
Omega CH continues to reiterate that the only correct A-S watches are those included in their range.

Second answer
My watch along with many other A-Ss have been purchased 6 months before the date officially announced by Omega Ch. The source evidence is: the transport document from Omega CH to the Maison DeMarchi and a couple of invoices from the current owners.
The caseback question is the most complex of all and I explained it in the previous post. The only explanation is that the DeMarchi randomly matched the movements with the casebacks. No proof, just my hypothesis!

Third answer
Many A-S watches were sold in 1975 and all come with a warranty and a box.
Omega CH states that the distribution of the A-S began in April 1976 and ended in July 1976 with the number 39.181.389

In my opinion, there are no other explanations to justify the existence of these Omega Apollo-Soyuz watches equipped with numbers of movements belonging to a production after the 70s.
 
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Wow this is very interesting I wasn’t aware that you have documented evidence of prior sales ...that makes the Di Marchis potentially preproduction and thus rarer and possibly more valuable and also explains the earlier movement numbers ...

This is not without precident as I am aware and have evidence there were at least 300 and more likely 5-600 preproduction Proplof 600’s and Seamaster 1000’s released into the professional market for evaluation in the exact same time period ..that is 1971 to 1973 prior to formal retail launch

Can you show delivery notes or invoices prior to official launch as this would reinforce the ‘earlier movement number construction’ hypothesis
 
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I like the " This is not without precident " part of above post 😁
 
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Just to reinforce the point I have added a photo I hope with the permission of the owner of a type 5 prototype Sm 1000 issued with a 1012 cal movement at least 2 years before it came to market with a market testing modification of a right hand crown
I am currently writing a new web site on this very model and again this was a low production run of 1000 for the retail market

And this had a preproduction run of 300 and this was number 216 .... AND THE NUMBER WAS STAMPED ON THE OUSIDE OF THE CASE SAME AS THE SOYUZ


This is a totally correct watch with service hands and it’s stamped interior is right crown orientation..this is not some destro ploprof types where it has been turned from its original configuration
 
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...still short of actual documented facts. Can we even agree on what specific physical characteristics mark a "true" Apollo-Soyuz LE?
ie unique dial
5.5mm pushers
unique case back (with or without "special" serial numbering?)
1168 bracelet (though possibly not unique to thsi LE?)

Does anything else unambiguously signify an A-S LE in the physical sense (setting aside an Archive Extract)?

The question of the serial numbering on the case back is certainly an odd one and possibly one which will never be answered conclusively. If it was not applied by Omega in Switzerland at manufacture (as inferred by the lack of any note to that effect on the extant Archive Extracts), then the obvious inferrence is tha it was applied locally in Italy. If there are no extant duplicate numbers, as seems to be the case, then someone in Italy must have been keeping records....

Still a very interesting thread (and a lovely watch!)
 
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Wow this is very interesting I wasn’t aware that you have documented evidence of prior sales ...that makes the Di Marchis potentially preproduction and thus rarer and possibly more valuable and also explains the earlier movement numbers ...

This is not without precident as I am aware and have evidence there were at least 300 and more likely 5-600 preproduction Proplof 600’s and Seamaster 1000’s released into the professional market for evaluation in the exact same time period ..that is 1971 to 1973 prior to formal retail launch

Can you show delivery notes or invoices prior to official launch as this would reinforce the ‘earlier movement number construction’ hypothesis

This is the bill of 1975 that accompanied my watch destined before the Maison DeMarchi.

Prior to this, the head of the Bien Museum and the Omega tables themselves claimed that my movement was 1970s maximum 1972.

I understand that the correct formula is: I do not believe it if I do not see it but 40 years have passed, Omega does not help us and the only way to understand something more is to talk to the dealers of that period ...

The Latin term is appropriate but probably Omega Ch does not know it and will never confirm the existence of other AS out of the range between 39.180.860 and 39.181.389 (529 movements ?)
All the research done so far shows that Omega Ch in 1976 sent 400 Apollo-Soyuz watches to the Maison Demarchi but it is also true that during the eponymous space mission this watch was already present in the Italian Omega dealers.
No one knows where these 100 Omega Apollo-Soyuz ended up simply because these 100 Apollo-Soyuz never existed ...

The Apollo-Soyuz have been produced and sold in three different moments:

Year 1975
Omega Pre-Apollo-Soyuz
31.316.xxx/ 32.200.xxx/32.800.xxx

Year 1976
Omega Apollo-Soyuz
from 39.180.000 to 39.181.389

Year 1980
Omega Apollo-Soyuz-DeMarchi
39.900.xxx/45.585.xxx

things went like this...
 
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This is the bill of 1975 that accompanied my watch destined before the Maison DeMarchi.

Prior to this, the head of the Bien Museum and the Omega tables themselves claimed that my movement was 1970s maximum 1972.

I understand that the correct formula is: I do not believe it if I do not see it but 40 years have passed, Omega does not help us and the only way to understand something more is to talk to the dealers of that period ...

The Latin term is appropriate but probably Omega Ch does not know it and will never confirm the existence of other AS out of the range between 39.180.860 and 39.181.389 (529 movements ?)
All the research done so far shows that Omega Ch in 1976 sent 400 Apollo-Soyuz watches to the Maison Demarchi but it is also true that during the eponymous space mission this watch was already present in the Italian Omega dealers.
No one knows where these 100 Omega Apollo-Soyuz ended up simply because these 100 Apollo-Soyuz never existed ...

The Apollo-Soyuz have been produced and sold in three different moments:

Year 1975
Omega Pre-Apollo-Soyuz
31.316.xxx/ 32.200.xxx/32.800.xxx

Year 1976
Omega Apollo-Soyuz
from 39.180.000 to 39.181.389

Year 1980
Omega Apollo-Soyuz-DeMarchi
39.900.xxx/45.585.xxx

things went like this...

Your research is impressive.
However, I'm not sold on the "pre-apollo" soyuz part, especially since the watches where produced before the mission even started.
I don't understand how Omega could allow a random # (30/40?) of watches to be produced from other speedmasters (31/32m watches being 1972 so they've put the dials & other AS parts on already assembled speedies?) knowing they would produce & deliver a 400 piece-series.
It would be preferable to have an Omega statement explaining what has happened there but in the meantime, as a collector, I wouldn't feel OK getting an A/S outside of the 39.1m range. It all comes down to how the collector comunity views these misterious A/S...
 
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Your research is impressive.
However, I'm not sold on the "pre-apollo" soyuz part, especially since the watches where produced before the mission even started.
I don't understand how Omega could allow a random # (30/40?) of watches to be produced from other speedmasters (31/32m watches being 1972 so they've put the dials & other AS parts on already assembled speedies?) knowing they would produce & deliver a 400 piece-series.
It would be preferable to have an Omega statement explaining what has happened there but in the meantime, as a collector, I wouldn't feel OK getting an A/S outside of the 39.1m range. It all comes down to how the collector comunity views these misterious A/S...

Beware, the movements of the first Apollo-Soyuz watches were not from 1972 but from 1975 (see document previously attached).

Omega CH, after learning that the sales of the Apollo-Soyuz were not going very well, decided to stop the production at 400pcs. But this happened later!

I am increasingly convinced that the first A-S sold in 1975 were a sort of experiment; that's why they mounted the movements of the Speedmaster of 1975.

The Maison Demarchi had in front of him an unmissable opportunity, indeed more unique than rare; participate in the creation and marketing of an Omega watch for the Italian market only.

Why submit the A-S the following year?

Presenting the watch a year later from the space mission would have been a mistake!

The Apollo-Soyuz was supposed to be in stores in July 1975 and in this way or another this watch did not miss this important appointment.