OMEGA APOLLO SOYUZ: Happy 45th birthday

pdxleaf

I don't understand why there is disagreement about Demarchi receiving spare parts.

If you accept the Omega extract as accurate that a watch was part of a batch transformed by Demarchi AND you accept that the Demarchi watches had everything except the case with 5.5mm pushers, then why is there a reluctance to believe Demarchi received the parts from Omega? How could they transform a watch from parts they didn't receive? I don't understand this part of the discussion.

Apollo-Soyuz

it's very simple!
it is very likely that the Italian Ditrubutore has received a couple of bracelets or a couple of dials but it is very unlikely that OMEGA has sent a fifth of the production:
- 100 bracelets
- 200 finals
- 100 caseback
- 100 dials
- 100 bezel per watch

fundamental for the transformation from Speedmaster to AS.

and then, to complete the transformation, De Marchi should also have received:
-100 cases,
-100 movements
-200 pushers

therefore, De Marchi also had to receive these above or have an important stock in stock ...

forgive me though ... with all due respect ... 200 pushers in stock ... it seems idiocy ... how many of you have ever changed puscher on a Speedmaster ???

and then, why convert a Speedmaster, (a watch known to the world, compared to the AS) with strange spare parts for the end customer ...?

Could one or two customers have requested this transformation? yes, it is possible but not for 70 or 100 customers.

and then, if instead De Marchi had received all the correct spare parts, why mount the watches in the wrong way?

and then, where did the correct movements go (39.180xx and 39.181.xxx) ?

and then, because we have the testimony of a former De Marchi employee who claims that all the watches arrived already assembled by OMEGA. De Marchi's work was centered on distribution.

and then, OMEGA's change of course without "concrete evidence" of this expedition closes the game with even more doubts!

and then, this statement, so clear and categorical, came very late and communicated in this way has the flavor of an attempt ... to silence all this.

this is my thought and I don't expect it to be approved by anyone.
I just say, just think of these words of mine
thank you

Archer

But experience shows that this is not the way it actually works. Look at the Mitsukoshi Speedmaster - LE of 300 pieces so smaller than the 500 for AS. I'm quite sure there are more "converted" watches out there than the original 300 units. Omega has dials in stock for these and has had since the beginning, and they have been sold in huge numbers over the years. I have one in stock in my shop right now.

Japan racing dials, Gemini dials...there are all kinds of these dials available as spare parts from, Omega, and hundreds and hundreds of watches have been converted using these spare parts. Omega keeps stock of all of these, so to say they wouldn't have made plenty of extras for a watch that was a 500 piece run just doesn't fit with reality. MOQ would include lots of spares to keep for repairs.

It makes no logistical or economic sense to order dials for what you know would be a 500 piece run, in batches of 100.

And as you point out, this is in the era of JIT and lean manufacturing, which didn't really exist back when these were made. Even more reason to believe that the orders were larger.

Cheers, Al

pdxleaf

I am not quite in agreement here that 400 to 476 were assigned. It is a reasonable hypothesis but not conclusive to me because watchmakers grabbed parts from bins sometimes randomly, which is why serial numbers of watches are sometimes older.

From what I read, there are only 4 of these watches in the 400 range and there is one extract from Omega the states there was a batch transformed by Demarchi (and that watch did not have 5.5mm).

To me, the extract could simply be saying that the watch is an original speedmaster that has some parts from the AS edition but should be considered original because it was transformed by an Authorized dealer. That is not the same as Omega saying the watch is an AS edition. They are simply saying it isn't a franken. Is this in agreement?

Chubsmaster

Hello my friend,

The transformation that Omega acknowledged in my extract (watch #468) is from a standard Speedmater into a AS De Marchi, originating from the batch of Speedmasters that De Marchi received in june of 1975.

As you said, there is no evidence that a large number of parts were shipped (to transform 70 to 100 watches), though neither (solid) evidence that the watches were shipped already transformed.

I actually don't think there are 70 to 100 AS De Marchi's. I have seen very few... Actually less than 10 if you follow the criteria used to issue the extract for #468.

Your theory "that no transformation was made in Fratelli De Marchi" might be right, why not, but there is no hard evidence to say you are 100% correct, though neither to say you are not correct.

The testimony of the De Marchi employee, saying "no transformation occurred in Torino", is interesting, even credible, though it is hard take it as evidence by itself. It is a testimony, an opinion. It makes (more) sense to me if the number of transformed watches was large (70 to 100), but not for a small batch (10 or less). Maybe the person you spoke with not even noticed the transformation of a small batch (all numbered in the 400's)... These are exactly the grey areas.

I don't think that Omega is trying to silence anyone. They are just reaching conclusions based on the available facts. Watch #468 originates from a batch of standard Speedmasters shipped to Torino in june of 1975 (you have the invoice), and it has a unique LE number that doesn't repeat, with the correct bracelet. This in my opinion leads to indicate that the transformation occurred in Italy, not knowing exactly when, using parts (dials, bracelets, casebacks) that somehow made it there, this is the most likely scenario.

This is an exceptional story by itself, and you have a fantastic piece! We can dig and dig and dig... Maybe we find more, maybe not. Documented facts are important. A lot of progress has been made, and your work has been a big part of all this! Thank you!

Regards

Foo2rama

And they all have Italian delivery... it’s way more then 2 watches.

also You still haven’t figured out who made the dials? It’s pretty obvious.

I guess you could argue the dial maker didn’t put the AS logo on the watch and that’s a later added screen print. Which could be plausible.

also the Volvo Ocean Racing is not an LE. It’s also currently available.

Foo2rama

And they all have Italian delivery... it’s way more then 2 watches.

also You still haven’t figured out who made the dials? It’s pretty obvious.

I guess you could argue the dial maker didn’t put the AS logo on the watch and that’s a later added screen print. Which could be plausible.

also the Volvo Ocean Racing is not an LE. It’s also currently available.

Apollo-Soyuz

so far I have touched at least 7 watches. however, if we keep Omega's initial rule, which said that: "The real Apollo-Soyuz" has a movement between 39.180.xxx and 39.181.xxx, it means that the numbers:
-39.920.661
-45.585.460
-39.927.934
are to be considered out of range like these numbers 286, 288, 416, 461, 468, etc ...

I remember it all began when I asked OMEGA to better check the shipping data of my watch; from Omega to De Marchi. Omega claimed it was impossible that my 416 could be considered a true Apollo Soyuz since it had a movement from 1972.
THE MUSEUM NEVER ASKED ME ANYTHING ABOUT THE SIZE OF THE PUSCHERS or other parts ... They were more focused on identifying the model by the movement number.
Fortunately the OMEGA museum found my watch's shipping document confirming that my Omega was sent to the Italian distributor in 1975.
ok, this was the past, now ... we TURN THE PAGE ... I have a dream; that OMEGA would one day catalog all the Apollo Soyuz watches currently in circulation.
nothing else! at least to consolidate what exists today and above all to avoid what happened with the Rolex 5517 (produced in 1000 copies, today we find 1500 pieces ...😕)

Apollo-Soyuz

you're too strong ... in your opinion it's all obvious ... YOU know everything ...
OMEGA was really stupid not to call you ...
everyone wasted years and time ...
it was enough to ask you for explanations and you would have enlightened us from the top of your great knowledge ... it's obvious ...😉

Apollo-Soyuz

it is I who must thank you for your testimony and for sharing new elements but above all also for the new hypotheses that make me reflect

Thanks so much

pdxleaf

Sometimes this is the best time to meet for a beer.