OMEGA APOLLO SOYUZ: Happy 45th birthday

Chubsmaster · Apr 20, 2021

pdxleaf
I reread this and am not clear on your thoughts. I deleted parts of your post and left the elements that seem contradictory to me. Can you clarify?

You consider your 468 watch an AS Demarchi, correct?

Your 468 watch has 5mm pushers, correct?

You agree that Omega did not deliver 5 mm watches. So this was assembled by Demarchi, which seems consistent. Buy I think you are saying you don't know who assembled your watch. Why?

Also, what does your extract say? Sorry if I missed this. I thought your extract said "transformed by Demarchi." Or was that a different watch?

Yes, #468 is a De Marchi with 5mm pushers. The extract says the watch was transformed by De Marchi, and it was shipped from Omega to Bienne as a regular Speedmaster in June, 1975, and came as part of a batch of 158 Speedies. It has a 1972 movement.

The reason for me saying that "I am not sure who transformed the watch" is because there is no evidence that parts were shipped to Torino (dials, bracelets and casebacks), so there is the (remote and unlikely) possibility that the watch left Bienne already as an AS with 5mm pushers. It could also be that some "AS kits" (dials, bracelets and casebacks) were shipped separately and never listed as separate items in an invoice. The invoice where my watch comes from doesn't list such parts (which is understandable because the invoice is from june 1975 and the AS was released in early 1976). Again, there are some gray areas. The official position (and the one I accept as most likely) is that the watch was transformed by De Marchi.

There is also hearsay evidence indicating that the AS De Marchi's were sold in late 1975. There are many different theories, and most of them have no data/evidence to back them up. Documented facts are that: AS De Marchi's have a correct dial, bracelet and caseback, no duplicates have been found, De Marchi's are most likely high numbers (4xx) according to the LE numbering, and they come from Speedmasters shipped to De Marchi Torino. Anything different needs to be analyzed in detail. Maybe someone already did so with other De Marchi watches, I have not. I have seen very few that match this criteria.

I hope this helps! Thank you for your comments!

Regards

Apollo-Soyuz · Apr 21, 2021

Archer
Thank you for restating it, but I think we've established that there's no evidence available. But again, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

We can say that today there are more doubts than evidence.
however, in my small way, I believe I have helped to gather some more information about this watch. there is no doubt; the truth is still a long way off. The fact remains that at our disposal today we know:
- the commercial agreements signed between De Marchi and OMEGA ch
- the movements and engravings of some AS watches in circulation (+/-)
- the testimony of a De Marchi employee, who ruled out the transformation
- the absence of an OMEGA transport document relating to the shipment of many spare parts (even if you think this: "the absence of evidence is not proof of absence". But, in this particular case, the absence of DDT is not the prove that the Italian Distributor used replacement parts he never received, don’t you think?)
- the exact dates of arrival at De Marchi of the correct AS and those of leaving the lot
- that there is no relationship between the numbers of the watch movements and the engravings on the caseback
- that to date there are no double engravings

It is not much but, in any case, this has prompted OMEGA to take a correct position, different from the initial one; where he denied the existence of the AS out-of-batch

thanks for your thought

Apollo-Soyuz · Apr 21, 2021

pdxleaf
Thanks.

When you say out of batch, you are referring to the serial number range. Do these out of batch watches all have 5.5mm pushers?

Where does the minimum number of at least 70 watches come from? It seems that there are only 44 total AS watches identified, which includes all but one watch with 5.5mm pushers.

In 1975 Omega sent 158 watches to De Marchi. Mine, along with many others, were on this expedition. The document specified that they were Speedmaster models.

44 is the total number of Apollo Soyuz (all) that I have collected, there are probably many more but at the moment I have not been able to retrieve any other information about it.

OMEGA has always claimed that the Apollo Soyuz have movements in the 39.180.xxx and 39.181.xxx range but then if you look at my list you will find of different numbers of the movements that have found Omega approval anyway.

If a Speedmaster watch is equipped with only an Apollo-Soyuz dial, it is NOT AN APOLLO SOYUZ nor an APOLLO SOYUZ OUT OF BATCH.

be careful though ... from your questions I perceive some confusion ... the thing is quite simple; two families have been identified:

-Apollo-Soyuz
-Apollo-Soyuz transformed by Distributore Italiano Omega.

the problem is that today we doesn't understand how the Italian distributor managed to transform them without having first received the spare parts...

Chubsmaster · Apr 21, 2021

Apollo-Soyuz
We can say that today there are more doubts than evidence.
however, in my small way, I believe I have helped to gather some more information about this watch. there is no doubt; the truth is still a long way off. The fact remains that at our disposal today we know:
- the commercial agreements signed between De Marchi and OMEGA ch
- the movements and engravings of some AS watches in circulation (+/-)
- the testimony of a De Marchi employee, who ruled out the transformation
- the absence of an OMEGA transport document relating to the shipment of many spare parts (even if you think this: "the absence of evidence is not proof of absence". But, in this particular case, the absence of DDT is not the prove that the Italian Distributor used replacement parts he never received, don’t you think?)
- the exact dates of arrival at De Marchi of the correct AS and those of leaving the lot
- that there is no relationship between the numbers of the watch movements and the engravings on the caseback
- that to date there are no double engravings

It is not much but, in any case, this has prompted OMEGA to take a correct position, different from the initial one; where he denied the existence of the AS out-of-batch

thanks for your thought

Hi,

I think that your work regarding the AS De Marchi has been fantastic! You have dedicated many years to gather information. All this has helped me to establish boundaries and define better what is missing.

Some of the information is based on hearsay, but there are facts. I have studied this watch for some time too. My approach has been to reach preliminary conclusions based on the confirmed evidence. Just to recap, I own AS De Marchi #468 and I am in process of buying AS 5.5mm #3xx (from a good friend), so there is no bias. I am not obsessed in any way.

Where we are, based on the confirmed information I have, or the lack of it:

- Omega delivered 158 standard Speedmasters to De Marchi in june of 1975, with 1972 movements (there is no evidence that they were transformed in Bienne, or that transformation kits were included). I have a copy of the invoice (which was made public years ago)
- Several of the so called AS De Marchi come from this batch of 158 (416, 461, 468 and 469, this last one to be confirmed)
- No duplicates found so far (known AS numbers are #6 to #476)
- There is no evidence that a large number of parts was shipped from Omega to De Marchi (dials, bracelets, casebacks)
- There is no evidence of who controlled or did the engraving of the casebacks.
- There is evidence that the AS watch was made for Italy, and Fratelli De Marchi was the exclusive distributor.
- The AS with 5.5mm pushers started to arrive in De Marchi Torino in april 1976, and were sold until the early 80's. There was no big appetite for them.
- AS with 5.5mm pushers #476 was delivered in De Marchi Torino on May 3 of 1976. To my knowledge there are not (many) AS with 5.5mm pushers above number 400.
- The existence of AS #476 proves that the numbering between 400 and 475 was at least assigned or planned to be used. There is no precise information on who transformed the watches, where, when and why, but for some reason a number of watches (in the 400's) were, at some point, transformed to AS De Marchi, and the numbers were used on them, so they are a valid AS, part of the LE.
- Omega issued the extract for watch #468, which I have (I bought it from Andrea Foffi in 2020).
- There are claims that there are other AS De Marchi's (in the #200 range or maybe other numbers). I have not been able to research those watches, so I don't have anything to say about them. An AS De Marchi in my opinion has to originate from a Speedmaster shipped to Fratelli De Marchi. There is no information on how many AS De Marchi's exist. I have seen very very few that comply with my criteria.

There are unanswered questions. The AS De Marchi is historically important. There is no evidence to call it a "prototype", or a "pre-production" watch, but neither a "fake", "abnormal" or a "franken". None of this terms can be applied with the available confirmed information.

My conclusion (so far) is that the Speedmaster Apollo Soyuz De Marchi is a 'variation', part of the LE. I have not spoken with the Omega Museum, neither I can speak on behalf of Omega, but somehow they reached to similar conclusions.

Hopefully some additional information arises that will help understand this better, and if not, I am ok where we are.

Regards

Archer · Apr 21, 2021

Foo2rama
the issue is the Italian delivered watches that just have the dial as someone is claiming...

When referring to the above watches...

Apollo-Soyuz
- the absence of an OMEGA transport document relating to the shipment of many spare parts (even if you think this: "the absence of evidence is not proof of absence". But, in this particular case, the absence of DDT is not the prove that the Italian Distributor used replacement parts he never received, don’t you think?)

I still believe the most likely explanation is that dials were brought in and installed. The fact that no one has found a document that has an order for dials on it is not compelling to me that dials were not ordered or shipped at some point. I order spare parts from Omega all the time, and I have paper and electronic records of all my orders. Back when this was going on, things were very different. Who is to say that paperwork from that era was not lost at some point?

Where did the dials come from if not ordered from Omega? Has someone had dials made on their own then? Not sure that is a more palatable option but if they didn't come from Omega, they must have come from somewhere else...so rather than shrug my shoulders and say "no one knows" I've outlined what is in my view the most likely scenario.

Again, you say you aren't disagreeing with me, but you continue to do so. Really I don't care if you agree or not, and as I've said, we can agree to disagree on this. From my view as a watchmaker, it makes the most sense.

Chubsmaster · Apr 21, 2021

Archer
When referring to the above watches...

I still believe the most likely explanation is that dials were brought in and installed. The fact that no one has found a document that has an order for dials on it is not compelling to me that dials were not ordered or shipped at some point. I order spare parts from Omega all the time, and I have paper and electronic records of all my orders. Back when this was going on, things were very different. Who is to say that paperwork from that era was not lost at some point?

Where did the dials come from if not ordered from Omega? Has someone had dials made on their own then? Not sure that is a more palatable option but if they didn't come from Omega, they must have come from somewhere else...so rather than shrug my shoulders and say "no one knows" I've outlined what is in my view the most likely scenario.

Again, you say you aren't disagreeing with me, but you continue to do so. Really I don't care if you agree or not, and as I've said, we can agree to disagree on this. From my view as a watchmaker, it makes the most sense.

Regarding watches that "only have an AS dial".... We are not talking AS De Marchi here, because the bracelet, caseback and numbering is not part of this discussion...

Dials can be compared to see if they are the same or not.

The information I have is that the AS dials were not manufactured by Omega, they used an external company, and they ordered batches of 100 dials, so for a LE of 500 "most likely" they ordered 600?

Though less than 400 watches have been identified, so "maybe" they ordered only 500?

There is no information on how many dials were made. This happened 45 years ago.

It makes sense that "dials" were shipped at some point, and the use (or misuse) of them is hard to control.

Regards

pdxleaf · Apr 21, 2021

I don't understand why there is disagreement about Demarchi receiving spare parts.

If you accept the Omega extract as accurate that a watch was part of a batch transformed by Demarchi AND you accept that the Demarchi watches had everything except the case with 5.5mm pushers, then why is there a reluctance to believe Demarchi received the parts from Omega? How could they transform a watch from parts they didn't receive? I don't understand this part of the discussion.

pdxleaf · Apr 21, 2021

Chubsmaster
- The existence of AS #476 proves that the numbering between 400 and 475 was at least assigned or planned to be used. There is no precise information on who transformed the watches, where, when and why, but for some reason a number of watches (in the 400's) were, at some point, transformed to AS De Marchi, and the numbers were used on them, so they are a valid AS, part of the LE.

I am not quite in agreement here that 400 to 476 were assigned. It is a reasonable hypothesis but not conclusive to me because watchmakers grabbed parts from bins sometimes randomly, which is why serial numbers of watches are sometimes older.

From what I read, there are only 4 of these watches in the 400 range and there is one extract from Omega the states there was a batch transformed by Demarchi (and that watch did not have 5.5mm).

To me, the extract could simply be saying that the watch is an original speedmaster that has some parts from the AS edition but should be considered original because it was transformed by an Authorized dealer. That is not the same as Omega saying the watch is an AS edition. They are simply saying it isn't a franken. Is this in agreement?

Chubsmaster · Apr 21, 2021

Now you are talking about AS De Marchi...

The answer is "yes", what you are describing is what the extract says, and the "most likely" scenario. I accept this.

It is also "very likely" that De Marchi receive service parts. I accept this too.

The questions that remain unanswered, specially if you transformed 70 to 100 watches, which by the way I doubt there are this many, is:

Where is the invoice for a large quantity of parts (dials, bracelets, casebacks? Who controlled and did the engraving?

Omega has never accepted that the watches were transformed in Bienne, and they issue the extract indicating they were transformed in De Marchi Torino, so the logical conclusion is what you are saying, that the invoice for parts used to do the transformation existed, but is gone. I am ok with this.

My question remains, at least for me, though probably doesn't mean much at this point.

Thank you

pdxleaf · Apr 21, 2021

Apollo-Soyuz
- the testimony of a De Marchi employee, who ruled out the transformation
-

It is not much but, in any case, this has prompted OMEGA to take a correct position, different from the initial one; where he denied the existence of the AS out-of-batch

I don't see the connection you are making here. It seems the Omega extract stated that Demarchi transformed some watches but the employee said they did not.

I thought we had agreement in the discussion that AS Demarchi watches had all elements except 5.5mm pushers and they were transformed by Demarchi, with evidence from the statement on the extract from #468. I may be still missing part of the calculus. Is there thought to be another group of AS watches with all elements except the 5.5mm pushers that were NOT transformed by Demarchi? If so, then I am really getting confused.

pdxleaf · Apr 21, 2021

Chubsmaster
Where is the invoice for a large quantity of parts (dials, bracelets, casebacks? Who controlled and did the engraving?

.

My question remains, at least for me, though probably doesn't mean much at this point.

Thank you

Thanks! I think I am starting to get it.

No, this part does mean something. It is part of the history and unknown, which makes it intriguing. There are so many facts about watches on the internet from people's years of searching and questioning. It is fun and interesting to still have some unknown areas to try to uncover.

Thanks again for your clear and helpful replies. This is yet another reason for wanting to visit Italy, as if I needed another.

What became of the Demarchi dealership? Is there an active storefront today? Is there a similar dealer in Italy today that has a relationship with Omega that Demarchi used to have, one that could develop special editions? That fact alone makes Demarchi stand out in history to me.

Dave

pdxleaf · Apr 21, 2021

Oh, this is as close as I have come to an AS. I am jealous of your soon to be two AS watches!

Please post pictures if and when you get your new watch.

Chubsmaster · Apr 21, 2021

pdxleaf
I am not quite in agreement here that 400 to 476 were assigned. It is a reasonable hypothesis but not conclusive to me because watchmakers grabbed parts from bins sometimes randomly, which is why serial numbers of watches are sometimes older.

From what I read, there are only 4 of these watches in the 400 range and there is one extract from Omega the states there was a batch transformed by Demarchi (and that watch did not have 5.5mm).

To me, the extract could simply be saying that the watch is an original speedmaster that has some parts from the AS edition but should be considered original because it was transformed by an Authorized dealer. That is not the same as Omega saying the watch is an AS edition. They are simply saying it isn't a franken. Is this in agreement?

In my post I mentioned that numbers between 400 and 476 were either assigned or planed to be used.

And in fact, they were used: #416, #461, #468 and #469, with no duplicates found. There could be more.

Attached is a copy of my extract indicating it is an Apollo Soyuz commemorative edition, and there are facts to sustain why Omega reach to this conclusion (which I did too, doing my own research).

Regards

Chubsmaster · Apr 21, 2021

pdxleaf
Thanks! I think I am starting to get it.

No, this part does mean something. It is part of the history and unknown, which makes it intriguing. There are so many facts about watches on the internet from people's years of searching and questioning. It is fun and interesting to still have some unknown areas to try to uncover.

Thanks again for your clear and helpful replies. This is yet another reason for wanting to visit Italy, as if I needed another.

What became of the Demarchi dealership? Is there an active storefront today? Is there a similar dealer in Italy today that has a relationship with Omega that Demarchi used to have, one that could develop special editions? That fact alone makes Demarchi stand out in history to me.

Dave

Thank you, I agree!

De Marchi closed many years ago, and this is one of the problems, so there is no access to their archives.

I was in Torino once, like 15 years ago, before I got the "Apollo Soyuz" bug.

I'll love to return and find out!

Regards

Chubsmaster · Apr 21, 2021

pdxleaf
Oh, this is as close as I have come to an AS. I am jealous of your soon to be two AS watches!

Please post pictures if and when you get your new watch.

Great watch!

I will post pictures!

Archer · Apr 21, 2021

Chubsmaster
It makes sense that "dials" were shipped at some point, and the use (or misuse) of them is hard to control.

Regards

And now you seem to understand my point.

Chubsmaster · Apr 21, 2021

Archer
And now you seem to understand my point.

I do, in the context of my note, regarding the existence of "AS" watches where the ONLY thing correct is the dial.

I think I got confused with two different topics... The AS De Marchi, and the dials. Sorry, I am new here.

Thank you for your dose of sarcasm.

Enjoy your day

Foo2rama · Apr 22, 2021

Chubsmaster
Regarding watches that "only have an AS dial".... We are not talking AS De Marchi here, because the bracelet, caseback and numbering is not part of this discussion...

Dials can be compared to see if they are the same or not.

The information I have is that the AS dials were not manufactured by Omega, they used an external company, and they ordered batches of 100 dials, so for a LE of 500 "most likely" they ordered 600?

Though less than 400 watches have been identified, so "maybe" they ordered only 500?

There is no information on how many dials were made. This happened 45 years ago.

It makes sense that "dials" were shipped at some point, and the use (or misuse) of them is hard to control.

Regards

i don’t mean to be rude here, but if your not aware of who makes the dials for Speedmaster Professionals, as well as all the other watches this dial maker is known for I wouldn’t be presenting data. I’d be asking a lot of questions. Some of these watches rhyme with schumona or tamitimer...

It’s pretty basic watch knowledge. I’ve never heard of 100 piece batches ever.

Chubsmaster · Apr 22, 2021

Foo2rama
i don’t mean to be rude here, but if your not aware of who makes the dials for Speedmaster Professionals, as well as all the other watches this dial maker is known for I wouldn’t be presenting data. I’d be asking a lot of questions. Some of these watches rhyme with schumona or tamitimer...

It’s pretty basic watch knowledge. I’ve never heard of 100 piece batches ever.

I don't know who made the dials for the 1976 Apollo Soyuz LE, but I heard in a conversation with a reliable source that Speedmaster dials in general were ordered by Omega in batches of 100.

I will try to document better who made the AS dials, and the quantities, though it makes sense, at least for me that Omega ordered 100 at a time. I don't think that Omega ordered dials one by one, or in very small quantities. It doesn't make sense from a manufacturing and logistics point of view. The AD was most likely able to order small quantities for service purposes.

It is also likely that someone somewhere made "fake AS dials", since some of them are pretty bad as you said. We all know that dials can be compared to determine if it is a good one. We look at the smallest details, things like fonts, size, location, colors, etc... So there are ways to know if it is legit.

You are not being rude, just consider my post an opinion, like many other opinions, and reach your own conclusions since I don't have the data to back this up. I will try to find out more.

Archer · Apr 22, 2021

Chubsmaster
I don't know who made the dials for the 1976 Apollo Soyuz LE, but I heard in a conversation with a reliable source that Speedmaster dials in general were ordered by Omega in batches of 100.

I will try to document better who made the AS dials, and the quantities, though it makes sense, at least for me that Omega ordered 100 at a time. I don't think that Omega ordered dials one by one, or in very small quantities. It doesn't make sense from a manufacturing and logistics point of view.

I think the point that was being made is that 100 dials is a VERY small quantity. In the watch industry, a 1000 dials would be a small order - I know, I've had custom dials made and it's difficult to even get someone to talk to you unless you are ordering 1000.

Omega would not order just enough dials to cover production, but also a quantity for replacements to keep in stock.

Cheers, Al

OMEGA APOLLO SOYUZ: Happy 45th birthday

Chubsmaster

Apollo-Soyuz

Apollo-Soyuz

Chubsmaster

Archer

Chubsmaster

pdxleaf

pdxleaf

Chubsmaster

pdxleaf

pdxleaf

pdxleaf

Chubsmaster

Chubsmaster

Chubsmaster

Archer

Chubsmaster

Foo2rama

Chubsmaster

Archer

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