OMEGA APOLLO SOYUZ: Happy 45th birthday

Chubsmaster · Apr 20, 2021

Foo2rama
1st. Is there proof that Omega sent spare dials to Demarchi? Yes in your own data that you just posted " This watch was part of a batch transformed by ..." Clearly, they were sent parts. Unless they magically grew dials as they were blessed by the glasnost fairy.

2nd. How do you not know the cases on a real AS are different, not just the pushers.

3rd. there is nothing wrong with Demarchi putting extra dials onto watches they have and selling them. They can do that as per the agreement you posted.

4th. Your agreeing with me, that there are AS watches with odd serial numbers that do not exhibit anything but the dial and delivered to Italy... what is your explanation for this, other then they put the extra dials into standard watches?

5th. Only one of these extracts according to you show AS on it for these odd ball ones, and we all know that extracts are sometimes influenced by the requestor and not by data in the archives.

6th I am not a hater, I prefer CorrectoRama as a name. I have no stake in this, you other the hand have 2 of these if I remember right and have a vested interest in your interpretation that seems to forget the bulk of data, and focus on only the small pieces data that seem to agree with your position.

Hi,

There is no evidence that De Marchi received spare dials. Neither there is evidence that De Marchi received AS watches with 5mm pushers from Omega Bienne.

There is a pattern of AS De Marchi's:

The movements were produced in May/1972 and they were shipped to Italy in Jun/1975 as standard Speedmasters. At some point there were transformed to AS De Marchi's, though there is no evidence on why and when this occurred. All of them have numbers between 41x and 46x.

Another documented fact is the existence of higher number correct AS with 5.5mm pushers. Number 47x was shipped to Italy in April 1976 which means that numbers up to 469 were already assigned, and some of them happen to be in standard Speedmaster cases, with 5mm pushers but with AS dial, caseback and bracelet.

I own #468 and I have the extract of archives, which indicates the information above.

There are multiple theories regarding the AS De Marchi's but there is little evidence. Facts are that they do exist. It is not about the dial. It is about looking at the whole picture, and the facts without passion.

The Speedmaster watch comes from Omega and was shipped to De Marchi Italy. It has an original dial, bracelet and most important an original caseback with a unique number, #468.

Was the watch transformed? The answer is "yes". When? By who? The answer is "the is no information". What about the parts? Spare dial? A kit? The answer is "there is no information neither evidence". The answers could make it a: "prototype", a "pre-production watch", a "variation", but not a "fake" because there is no evidence about that either, and this is why Omega decided to issue extracts based on facts, after putting together all the pieces.

I personally feel proud of owning this watch. I have spent time learning about it. It has such a fascinating story, full of grey areas. I have a couple of theories too... I will be happy to share them though there is no evidence, but they make sense too.

Below are two pictures of my watch. The dial is spectacular! I also included a pic of the caseback.

Thank you for reading my comment. I am always open for constructive discussions. Maybe we all learn something new.

Enjoy your day!

Apollo-Soyuz · Apr 20, 2021

Foo2rama
1st. Is there proof that Omega sent spare dials to Demarchi? Yes in your own data that you just posted " This watch was part of a batch transformed by ..." Clearly, they were sent parts. Unless they magically grew dials as they were blessed by the glasnost fairy.

2nd. How do you not know the cases on a real AS are different, not just the pushers.

3rd. there is nothing wrong with Demarchi putting extra dials onto watches they have and selling them. They can do that as per the agreement you posted.

4th. Your agreeing with me, that there are AS watches with odd serial numbers that do not exhibit anything but the dial and delivered to Italy... what is your explanation for this, other then they put the extra dials into standard watches?

5th. Only one of these extracts according to you show AS on it for these odd ball ones, and we all know that extracts are sometimes influenced by the requestor and not by data in the archives.

6th I am not a hater, I prefer CorrectoRama as a name. I have no stake in this, you other the hand have 2 of these if I remember right and have a vested interest in your interpretation that seems to forget the bulk of data, and focus on only the small pieces data that seem to agree with your position.

I have a bad feeling that our dialogues never end ... I feel like I'm in that "Groundhog Day" movie.

for the umpteenth time I repeat it to you; There is no trace of accessory shipments made to the De Marchi Distributor, how should I tell you?
OMEGA, with this new declaration written in the Abstract Archive, has closed the game, and I hope not definitively. In this way OMEGA attributed the responsibility to the Italian distributor and let it imply that the De Marchi family had mountains of accessories for Apollo-Soyuz ... GOAL!
The OMEGA Museum has always kept all documents relating to production and shipments. Is it possible that only this very important expedition is missing?
strange isn't it?

IMPORTANT: "However, I remember that Mr Bertolina, a watchmaking technician at De Marchi from 1970 to 1985, confirmed that, during this period, watches were produced by Omega and delivered already assembled to the De Marchi distributor, who was responsible (ONLY) for distributing Omega watches in Italy."

I renew the invitation; If you or an OMEGA employee can kindly share this overwhelming evidence with all of us, I'd love to see it now, so I can finally explain all the reasons for this world to you.
I swear!
Until then, yours is just bar talk ...

Do you want to convince me to believe OMEGA's words? how can i believe OMEGA ???
I remind you that, while the two famous Apollo-Soyuzs were sold at ANTIQUORUM auction (Lot 234 - Geneva, Mandarin Oriental Hotel Du Rhône, M. n. 45.585.460 /Lot 19 - Geneva, Mandarin Oriental Hotel Du Rhône, M.No. 39,927,934) other poor Apollo-Soyuz Out of Batch owners received this unworthy and insulting OMEGA response:

A curiosity; the latter statement no longer appears anywhere, including the OMEGA website.
Please explain these two points to me better:
- point 4 (I do not understand the question of odd numbers; underline in the list I have published; I want to understand better what you mean.
- point 6: are you asking me if I have n°2 A-S? No, I only have number 416 and I can confirm you that it made me age prematurely ... thank you very much

Apollo-Soyuz · Apr 20, 2021

pdxleaf
Thanks to both of you for sharing your thoughts and analysis.

I am a little unclear on the different opinions. I think I read that there is agreement that an official AS watch should contain an AS dial, special case (for the larger pushers), larger pushers, a different caseback, a limited # of # etching on caseback.

The difference is the belief that there may be 2 to 3 watches that have AS dials but do not have all of the other elements.

Is this accurate?

I hope I am not adding any stress, discomfort or disrespect to the discussion. It is interesting and I appreciate the discussion.

Hi,
no stress indeed many thanks for your interest.
Initially many had thought that the Apollo-Soyuz out of batch was reserved for the range between 400 and 500 (engraving on the back). Subsequently, also in range 200-299, some AS out of Batch watches were identified (different from the range 39.180.xxx and 39.181.xxx). Some years ago the Extract d'Archive of n ° 47x denied the hypothesis of block 400-500 reserved for Apollo-Soyuz Out of Batch. The total number of AS out of batch is unclear, however it could vary between 70 and 100 watches.
I had suggested to OMEGA that they organize a recall campaign to carry out a real census, in the hope of cataloging the entire block of 500 watches but ... my idea was not liked ...
above you can see my small census...currently n°44 AS watches (all) have been identified ... not many ... unfortunately

thank you

Archer · Apr 20, 2021

In the absence of evidence (which is not the same as evidence of absence) I think you have to look at the most likely scenarios.

To me that means that someone assembled a bunch of these outside of Omega, using spare parts that were bought from Omega. Who did this? Not sure it really matters if we are just distinguishing one group from another, but it would seem the people originally involved would be the most likely to be involved in this.

Chubsmaster · Apr 20, 2021

Apollo-Soyuz
Hi,
no stress indeed many thanks for your interest.
Initially many had thought that the Apollo-Soyuz out of batch was reserved for the range between 400 and 500 (engraving on the back). Subsequently, also in range 200-299, some AS out of Batch watches were identified (different from the range 39.180.xxx and 39.181.xxx). Some years ago the Extract d'Archive of n ° 47x denied the hypothesis of block 400-500 reserved for Apollo-Soyuz Out of Batch. The total number of AS out of batch is unclear, however it could vary between 70 and 100 watches.
I had suggested to OMEGA that they organize a recall campaign to carry out a real census, in the hope of cataloging the entire block of 500 watches but ... my idea was not liked ...
above you can see my small census...currently n°44 AS watches (all) have been identified ... not many ... unfortunately

thank you

Archer
In the absence of evidence (which is not the same as evidence of absence) I think you have to look at the most likely scenarios.

To me that means that someone assembled a bunch of these outside of Omega, using spare parts that were bought from Omega. Who did this? Not sure it really matters if we are just distinguishing one group from another, but it would seem the people originally involved would be the most likely to be involved in this.

Hi,

I don't think there is any evidence to consider this a "most likely scenario". Facts only indicate that there are "different scenarios", and all of them are possible. Unless someone shows a spare parts invoice (that includes dials, bracelets and casebacks shipped from Bienne to Torino), then this is just a theory, as many others.

In fact, let me explain further. There is no evidence of how of many AS DeMarchi really exist. It has always been said that there are between 70 and 100 De Marchi's, but again, there is no evidence of this. Facts show there are far less than 100. The number 100 became "accepted" because an expert said so, but with no (strong) evidence behind his claim.

First, I think it should be defined what a AS De Marchi means. For me it has to check all these boxes:

a) That the original watch was invoiced and shipped from Omega to De Marchi, as a regular Speedmaster (with 5mm pushers)
b) Shipment made preferably sometime in 1975 or 1976, or even during the years the AS has sold by De Marchi
c) It needs to have the correct dial, bracelet and caseback
d) It needs to have a unique number, that doesn't repeat, as part of the less than 500 pcs Apollo Soyuz limited edition.

I have been able to identify less than 10 that comply with these requirements, and all of them are between 41x and 46x. Actually there are three between 461 and 469.

There are several watches that have been presented as AS De Marchi's but there is something wrong or missing... Things like:

a) The Speedmaster was not shipped to De Marchi Torino
b) It was shipped in the early 70's or in the late 80's, not when AS was produced and sold
c) The dial is correct, but not the bracelet or the caseback
d) Sometimes the caseback is correct but the number is "faded". Sometimes sellers say this happened because of "usage". I have seen many AS watches, and the number doesn't fade that easy.

Any of these factors raise red flags, specially before making a purchase.

I have not analyzed De Marchi's numbered between 200 and 299. The ones I have found that meet the criteria I indicated all are between 41x and 46x.

Many of the theories around are based on hearsay or conversations, and this is not strong evidence. I have developed some theories myself, but I don't have ways to demonstrate if they are correct.

Let me just give you a brief introduction of one of my theories... There has also been identified at least one Speedmaster watch, with the modified case and 5.5mm pushers, correct Apollo Soyuz movement (range of 39.180.860 to 39.181.389), sold by De Marchi, that has regular Speedmaster dial and caseback. At that time the AS watch was not popular, it was kind of weird to have the AS logo on the dial, so one possibility is that someone wanted a Regular Speedmaster but with the big case and 5.5mm pushers, and De Marchi just exchanged parts (dial, bracelet and caseback) between a "correct AS" and a "correct Speedmaster", to create an "AS De Marchi", and a "Speedmaster DeMarchi". Maybe this happened a handful of times... Could be as simple as this, without any sophisticated conspiracy theories. Can this be proven? Not yet, or maybe never, so in the meantime, this is just another theory, but there are strong hints that this is possible.

I own AS De Marchi #468 (check on all four boxes, plus the Omega extract), and I am in process of buying AS #3xx from a good friend. Hopefully I can post a pic of both in the coming months. I love my AS De Marchi, the story is intriguing, which makes it special, also considering I have spent an awful amount of time trying to understand all this.

Again, I am open to positive and constructive conversations!

Happy Speedy Tuesday!

Archer · Apr 20, 2021

Chubsmaster
I don't think there is any evidence to consider this a "most likely scenario".

Thank you for restating it, but I think we've established that there's no evidence available. But again, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Chubsmaster
There has also been identified at least one Speedmaster watch, with the modified case and 5.5mm pushers, correct Apollo Soyuz movement (range of 39.180.860 to 39.181.389), sold by De Marchi, that has regular Speedmaster dial and caseback. At that time the AS watch was not popular, it was kind of weird to have the AS logo on the dial, so one possibility is that someone wanted a Regular Speedmaster but with the big case and 5.5mm pushers, and De Marchi just exchanged parts (dial, bracelet and caseback) between a "correct AS" and a "correct Speedmaster", to create an "AS De Marchi", and a "Speedmaster DeMarchi". Maybe this happened a handful of times... Could be as simple as this, without any sophisticated conspiracy theories. Can this be proven? Not yet, or maybe never, so in the meantime, this is just another theory, but there are strong hints that this is possible.

It's interesting to see the mentality applied to these scenarios. From the point of view of a watchmaker, if you are creating a franken watch there would be no reason to swap dials. Instead of removing the hands, and dials from two watches (risking damage in the process), then installing the hands and dials on two watches, it would be much quicker just to move the entire movement with dial and hands attached over, so this scenario doesn't seem very plausible to me to be honest.

Of course what you suggest here is certainly possible, and if these odd watches were a one off (and yes one could have been made in this way - that's not proof that they all were), then I would be more inclined to support this idea, but the numbers suggest something different to me.

As I said, none of it really matters if you are only trying to distinguish between a "proper" model and one of these suspect models.

We could dream up a lot of different scenarios for this I'm sure. To me, ordering in dials is the most sensible thing. But certainly we can agree to disagree.

pdxleaf · Apr 20, 2021

A question of terminology: sometimes the term "AS Demarchi" is used to distinguish from a watch from other AS watches. I think I understand how the distinction but I might be incorrect. I thought all AS watches were Demarchi watches but it seems not.

Ignoring for now the serial numbers, does everyone agree with the following:

1. There are three groups of watches discussed:
A) one group with all attributes including the 5.5mm pushers;
B) one group with all elements except the 5.5mm pushers;
C) a group with a mixture of elements that don't fit in the above two groups.

2. The group with 5.5mm pushers were assembled in Switzerland by Omega.

3. The group with 5.5mm assembled by Omega in Switzerland were sent to DeMarchi for sale to the public. (This is why I thought all AS watches were "Demarchi.")

4. The group with all but the 5.5mm pushers are called "AS Demarchi" watches. At least one of these has an Omega extract stating it was assembled by Demarchi.

5. The final group (doesn't have all elements or all elements except 5.5mm pushers) are considered frankens, (not intended to be derogatory but to indicate put together by someone other than Demarchi.)

I am not meaning to make a statement about the merits of the above, but attempting to understand the nuances.

I have been confused about how many watches have been actually spotted that are in the group referred to as AS Demarchi ( all elements except 5.5mm pushers.) I think I read that there are as many as 100 or as few as 2. The conclusions about as many as 100 seem to be based on a range of serial numbers. But how many watches with all elements except the 5.5mm pushers are identified? There is number 468. Then it is said there are three between 461 and 469. Are there only three known watches? What are the others besides 468?

Also, how many extracts exist like the one for serial number 468? Is there just the one or are there others?

Thanks. Hope this isn't annoying. I have read alot of prior threads and posts and am intrigued but I confess to losing the thread at times.

pdxleaf · Apr 20, 2021

Apollo-Soyuz
Hi,
no stress indeed many thanks for your interest.
Initially many had thought that the Apollo-Soyuz out of batch was reserved for the range between 400 and 500 (engraving on the back). Subsequently, also in range 200-299, some AS out of Batch watches were identified (different from the range 39.180.xxx and 39.181.xxx). Some years ago the Extract d'Archive of n ° 47x denied the hypothesis of block 400-500 reserved for Apollo-Soyuz Out of Batch. The total number of AS out of batch is unclear, however it could vary between 70 and 100 watches.
I had suggested to OMEGA that they organize a recall campaign to carry out a real census, in the hope of cataloging the entire block of 500 watches but ... my idea was not liked ...
above you can see my small census...currently n°44 AS watches (all) have been identified ... not many ... unfortunately

thank you

Thanks.

When you say out of batch, you are referring to the serial number range. Do these out of batch watches all have 5.5mm pushers?

Where does the minimum number of at least 70 watches come from? It seems that there are only 44 total AS watches identified, which includes all but one watch with 5.5mm pushers.

Chubsmaster · Apr 20, 2021

Archer
Thank you for restating it, but I think we've established that there's no evidence available. But again, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

It's interesting to see the mentality applied to these scenarios. From the point of view of a watchmaker, if you are creating a franken watch there would be no reason to swap dials. Instead of removing the hands, and dials from two watches (risking damage in the process), then installing the hands and dials on two watches, it would be much quicker just to move the entire movement with dial and hands attached over, so this scenario doesn't seem very plausible to me to be honest.

Of course what you suggest here is certainly possible, and if these odd watches were a one off (and yes one could have been made in this way - that's not proof that they all were), then I would be more inclined to support this idea, but the numbers suggest something different to me.

As I said, none of it really matters if you are only trying to distinguish between a "proper" model and one of these suspect models.

We could dream up a lot of different scenarios for this I'm sure. To me, ordering in dials is the most sensible thing. But certainly we can agree to disagree.

Hi,

I am not disagreeing with you, but you have no evidence of your theory that they "ordered dials".

Watch #468 has correct dial, bracelet and caseback, with a unique number. This was not the result of a "dials order". Maybe they also ordered bracelets, casebacks, and then how do you explain the numbering... What you are saying is possible, if you include the other parts and explain how the numbering occurred (before April of 1975, when #47x was delivered in Torino). I guess we can agree on this.

The theory I stated is just that, a theory, and I don't have facts to sustain it, and your opinion about it doesn't debunk it either. Theories are not "dreams", and they are based on circumstantial evidence, and need to be proven or debunked (both with facts). The theory I stated is just one of many other possibilities.

There is no evidence either to label (in a degradatory way) the De Marchi as a "franken" or a "suspect" (as you mentioned between lines) since there are many gray areas, and there is no evidence to sustain such labeling. The watch was transformed: true. By who or when? There is no information. Where did the parts come from? There is no information neither evidence.

There is evidence of the pattern I was able to document of what a De Marchi should be. This was actually the essence of my previous post, and I think there is value in the analysis I made. It doesn't answer when the transformation was made, by who, neither the origin of the parts, though it documents that a numbering existed.

Unless evidence is produced (in favor, or against it) the AS DeMarchi's could be many things: "pre-production", "variation" or a "transformed Speedmaster" (with a unique dial, bracelet and caseback, part of the AS numbering). My guess is that it will remain in this gray area for the years to come.

Regardless of what the watch is (I am not obsessed with any option or result), it is a valuable historical watch, simply because there is no other Apollo Soyuz #468 (and has a check on all the De Marchi boxes), and this in my opinion is what lead the Omega Museum to accept it in a particular way.

Take care!

Archer · Apr 20, 2021

Chubsmaster
I am not disagreeing with you, but you have no evidence of your theory that they "ordered dials".

Not sure if there is a language barrier in play here, but as I've said already, I know this. I am not talking about what there is "evidence" for, because there isn't "evidence" for any of the alternate scenarios either.

I'm talking about what is likely in my view in the absence of evidence.

Chubsmaster
The theory I stated is just that, a theory, and I don't have facts to sustain it, and your opinion about it doesn't debunk it either. Theories are not "dreams", and they are based on circumstantial evidence, and need to be proven or debunked (both with facts). The theory I stated is just one of many other possibilities.

Well, so much for looking at this without emotion. 🤦

I didn't say what you had suggested were "dreams" and I distinctly stated it was possible, just not plausible in my opinion. I'm not out to "debunk" your theories. I'm simply saying that based on how things work as a watchmaker, they do not seem plausible to me. It's clear you disagree, and I'm fine with that.

Chubsmaster
There is no evidence either to label (in a degradatory way) the De Marchi as a "franken" or a "suspect" (as you mentioned between lines) since there are many gray areas, and there is no evidence to sustain such labeling.

If someone takes a dial and parts from one watch and puts them into a watch it doesn't belong to, that is a franken in my view. Agree or disagree, it makes no difference to me personally.

Chubsmaster
My guess is that it will remain in this gray area for the years to come.

On that we can agree.

Chubsmaster · Apr 20, 2021

pdxleaf
A question of terminology: sometimes the term "AS Demarchi" is used to distinguish from a watch from other AS watches. I think I understand how the distinction but I might be incorrect. I thought all AS watches were Demarchi watches but it seems not.

Ignoring for now the serial numbers, does everyone agree with the following:

1. There are three groups of watches discussed:
A) one group with all attributes including the 5.5mm pushers;
B) one group with all elements except the 5.5mm pushers;
C) a group with a mixture of elements that don't fit in the above two groups.

2. The group with 5.5mm pushers were assembled in Switzerland by Omega.

3. The group with 5.5mm assembled by Omega in Switzerland were sent to DeMarchi for sale to the public. (This is why I thought all AS watches were "Demarchi.")

4. The group with all but the 5.5mm pushers are called "AS Demarchi" watches. At least one of these has an Omega extract stating it was assembled by Demarchi.

5. The final group (doesn't have all elements or all elements except 5.5mm pushers) are considered frankens, (not intended to be derogatory but to indicate put together by someone other than Demarchi.)

I am not meaning to make a statement about the merits of the above, but attempting to understand the nuances.

I have been confused about how many watches have been actually spotted that are in the group referred to as AS Demarchi ( all elements except 5.5mm pushers.) I think I read that there are as many as 100 or as few as 2. The conclusions about as many as 100 seem to be based on a range of serial numbers. But how many watches with all elements except the 5.5mm pushers are identified? There is number 468. Then it is said there are three between 461 and 469. Are there only three known watches? What are the others besides 468?

Also, how many extracts exist like the one for serial number 468? Is there just the one or are there others?

Thanks. Hope this isn't annoying. I have read alot of prior threads and posts and am intrigued but I confess to losing the thread at times.

Hi,

Your group a) are the standard AS, with 5.5 mm pushers (known numbers are from #6 to #47x).

Regarding group b), I have been able to identify four watches between 41x and 46x that meet the following criteria:

1) The watch originates from a Speedmaster with movement produced in 1972, and shipped to De Marchi Torino in June of 1975 (as part a batch of 158 Speedmasters).
2) They have the correct dial, bracelet and caseback
3) They have unique AS high numbers (4xx's)

There is no evidence where the watches were transformed, when, by who and where the parts come from, but there is evidence that #47x (5.5mm pushers) was delivered in Torino in April 1976, which validates the numbering.

Is this the only criteria? Or can we be more flexible? Big question. If you assume that De Marchi made the transformations, these could have occurred from late 1975 until the early 80's, which are the years when the AS was produced and sold, which could lead to the possibility that there are others.

Honestly I have seen very few De Marchi's (5mm pushers). There are claims that 70 to 100 were transformed but very few have been identified that meet the criteria I explained above. I don't know the details of AS De Marchi's numbered between #200 and #299. This requires further analysis.

There is of course group c) which include things like 1) the Speedmaster was not shipped to De Marchi Italy, 2) It was shipped in the early 70's or late 80's, 3) Incorrect bracelet or caseback, "faded" number, etc.

Group c) are just abnormal.

I hope this explains things better.

Regards!

Foo2rama · Apr 20, 2021

I didn’t say they ordered dials

it makes total sense that they received extra dials for either service or as part of a minimum batch from singer.

why is it so hard to believe that they received more dials then watches? Makes total sense to have spare dials for service or damage in conversion or warranty.

I should note at the end of day I don’t care. My issue is that speculations are being presented as fact when they are conjecture, and not the most logical answer based on what we know about how things worked.

im only presenting the evidence that what is being said should not be taken as fact.

Chubsmaster · Apr 20, 2021

Archer
Not sure if there is a language barrier in play here, but as I've said already, I know this. I am not talking about what there is "evidence" for, because there isn't "evidence" for any of the alternate scenarios either.

I'm talking about what is likely in my view in the absence of evidence.

Well, so much for looking at this without emotion. 🤦

I didn't say what you had suggested were "dreams" and I distinctly stated it was possible, just not plausible in my opinion. I'm not out to "debunk" your theories. I'm simply saying that based on how things work as a watchmaker, they do not seem plausible to me. It's clear you disagree, and I'm fine with that.

If someone takes a dial and parts from one watch and puts them into a watch it doesn't belong to, that is a franken in my view. Agree or disagree, it makes no difference to me personally.

On that we can agree.

I think what you consider "likely" for me is only a possibility, equal to other options.

I agree on your definition of "franken" watch, though this is not the case here if you consider the numbering (unique #468).

There is no evidence of when and why the transformation occurred, and where the parts come from.

It is a very interesting story, very intriguing!

Thank yo for sharing your thoughts with me.

Chubsmaster · Apr 20, 2021

Foo2rama
I didn’t say they ordered dials

it makes total sense that they received extra dials for either service or as part of a minimum batch from singer.

why is it so hard to believe that they received more dials then watches? Makes total sense to have spare dials for service or damage in conversion or warranty.

It is not hard to believe, it is a valid possibility that can explain the existence of the dials.

I guess De Marchi possibly also received spare bracelets, which can explain the existence of the bracelets.

and casebacks with unique numbering, in sequence with the LE numbering... that can explain... what? The existence of the AS DeMarchi.

Back to square one...

Several unanswered questions.

Foo2rama · Apr 20, 2021

Chubsmaster
It is not hard to believe, it is a valid possibility that can explain the existence of the dials.

I guess De Marchi possibly also received spare bracelets, which can explain the existence of the bracelets.

and casebacks with unique numbering, in sequence with the LE numbering... that can explain... what? The existence of the AS DeMarchi.

Back to square one...

Several unanswered questions.

the issue is the Italian delivered watches that just have the dial as someone is claiming...

Archer · Apr 20, 2021

Foo2rama
the issue is the Italian delivered watches that just have the dial as someone is claiming...

Yes, this is why there's so much confusion - people are cross taking about different watches. These are the ones I'm referring to as well.

pdxleaf · Apr 20, 2021

Thanks all. Making more sense.

One more question:

Is it believed that Omega built all the AS watches that had all the elements, including 5.5mm pushers, and sent those to Demarchi to sell as the sole distributor?

Chubsmaster · Apr 20, 2021

Foo2rama
the issue is the Italian delivered watches that just have the dial as someone is claiming...

Only the dial is not correct even for a AS De Marchi... I missed this part.

pdxleaf · Apr 20, 2021

Chubsmaster
..
Neither there is evidence that De Marchi received AS watches with 5mm pushers from Omega Bienne.

... At some point there were transformed to AS De Marchi's, though there is no evidence on why and when this occurred. All of them have numbers between 41x and 46x.

...I own #468 and I have the extract of archives, which indicates the information above...

...The Speedmaster watch comes from Omega and was shipped to De Marchi Italy. It has an original dial, bracelet and most important an original caseback with a unique number, #468.

...Was the watch transformed? The answer is "yes". When? By who? The answer is "the is no information".

I reread this and am not clear on your thoughts. I deleted parts of your post and left the elements that seem contradictory to me. Can you clarify?

You consider your 468 watch an AS Demarchi, correct?

Your 468 watch has 5mm pushers, correct?

You agree that Omega did not deliver 5 mm watches. So this was assembled by Demarchi, which seems consistent. Buy I think you are saying you don't know who assembled your watch. Why?

Also, what does your extract say? Sorry if I missed this. I thought your extract said "transformed by Demarchi." Or was that a different watch?

Chubsmaster · Apr 20, 2021

pdxleaf
Thanks all. Making more sense.

One more question:

Is it believed that Omega built all the AS watches that had all the elements, including 5.5mm pushers, and sent those to Demarchi to sell as the sole distributor?

Correct, all AS with 5.5mm pushers come from Omega Bienne. The Speedmaster Apollo Soyuz started as a De Marchi project, for the Italian market. It was not a very popular watch. It was sold from 1976 until the early 80's.

The so called AS De Marchi watches originated during such timeframe, even possibly in 1975 though there is no solid evidence.

OMEGA APOLLO SOYUZ: Happy 45th birthday

Chubsmaster

Apollo-Soyuz

Apollo-Soyuz

Archer

Chubsmaster

Archer

pdxleaf

pdxleaf

Chubsmaster

Archer

Chubsmaster

Foo2rama

Chubsmaster

Chubsmaster

Foo2rama

Archer

pdxleaf

Chubsmaster

pdxleaf

Chubsmaster

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