Oddboy’s World of Vintage Speedmaster Parts

STANDY · Apr 20, 2018

Will we see the eventual
"Is this a fake hammer spring" thread.......

Like in many vintage things once it gets to a stage that a certain part is a certain price it will be viable to make the part needed.

Once a hammer Spring gets to $1000 you will find someone will start making them

And selling them on EBay

Basset Hound · Apr 20, 2018

Thank you. Interesting article. When does a watch cease to be the original watch when parts are replaced? The general question about replacing parts on objects and whether the object remains fundamentally the same object is known as Theseus’ paradox. To those of us in the U.K. of a certain age it’s probably better known as “Trigger’s broom”. To explain to the rest of the world Trigger was a character in a British sit-com who who was a road sweeper who won an award for having the same broom for 20 years before revealing that it has had 17 new heads and 14 new handles!
When does a watch become like Trigger’s broom??

oddboy · Apr 20, 2018

Awesome question @Basset Hound !

Like anything, I'm sure there is a wide spectrum of opinions on that question. I think the purist view might be that a watch is original once, when it leaves the factory. However many parts on a watch are replaced by necessity, especially the external pieces like pushers for example, or crystal. So that line is blurry and it depends highly on which shade of grey best matches your watch strap.

Original once, but does having modern replaced pushers devalue the watch? Not much as long as they're the correct pushers, in my humble opinion. Does replacing the dial with a modern service dial devalue the watch? Immensely - again, imho.

Dammit, I just checked my picture archive and I don't have a grey strap mounted, so this will have to do..

M'Bob · Apr 20, 2018

Basset Hound
Thank you. Interesting article. When does a watch cease to be the original watch when parts are replaced? The general question about replacing parts on objects and whether the object remains fundamentally the same object is known as Theseus’ paradox. To those of us in the U.K. of a certain age it’s probably better known as “Trigger’s broom”. To explain to the rest of the world Trigger was a character in a British sit-com who who was a road sweeper who won an award for having the same broom for 20 years before revealing that it has had 17 new heads and 14 new handles!
When does a watch become like Trigger’s broom??

Despite how we like to romanticize these things, they are not hand-crafted items, nor unique. Therefore, from my perspective, "original" for me can include a replacement of any part, as long as it is from the same time period, from the same manufacturer, and in a similar condition to the part being replaced.

gemini4 · Apr 20, 2018

👍

M'Bob · Apr 20, 2018

Dibs...

Archer · Apr 20, 2018

oddboy
it is a reference to that, though i found out from Al while writing this piece that the part I posted a pic of is not the same one that was paperclipped in that situation...

.... @ulackfocus, is that a term we can add to the OF Lexicon? "paperclipped"?

Just for posterity, this is the "paperclip gate" watch, showing the offending part:

And what the actual parts for the minute counter jumper should look like:

The part that oddboy identifies in that article is a yoke spring - parts of the winding/setting mechanism.

Cheers, Al

Archer · Apr 20, 2018

oddboy
A balance complete is a beautiful thing to behold though the patina covered plastic of a NOS Omega package.

But the big question is, which version of the balance do you have, and is the right one for the watches you own?

::stirthepot::

😁

oddboy · Apr 20, 2018

Archer
But the big question is, which version of the balance do you have, and is the right one for the watches you own?

😁

Breguet or "flat"? Is that the designation?

Basset Hound · Apr 20, 2018

M'Bob
Despite how we like to romanticize these things, they are not hand-crafted items, nor unique. Therefore, from my perspective, "original" for me can include a replacement of any part, as long as it is from the same time period, from the same manufacturer, and in a similar condition to the part being replaced.

Is that the case if all the parts are replacement parts? Would it still be an “original” watch? I know that extreme wouldn’t happen but we would all draw the line at a different point.

sxl2004 · Apr 20, 2018

Archer
Just for posterity, this is the "paperclip gate" watch, showing the offending part:

And what the actual parts for the minute counter jumper should look like:

The part that oddboy identifies in that article is a yoke spring - parts of the winding/setting mechanism.

Cheers, Al

I still cannot stop myself admiring the ingenuity.😁😉
Also think of how much a colored paperclip would have added to the beauty of the movement. 😲🙄
Countless opportunities missed.😗

henrikaa · Apr 20, 2018

STANDY
Will we see the eventual
"Is this a fake hammer spring" thread.......

Like in many vintage things once it gets to a stage that a certain part is a certain price it will be viable to make the part needed.

Once a hammer Spring gets to $1000 you will find someone will start making them

And selling them on EBay

It’s just a matter of time before the technology necessary to 3D-print it at home will be accessible and inexpensive enough to produce the parts.

oddboy · Apr 20, 2018

henrikaa
It’s just a matter of time before the technology necessary to 3D-print it at home will be accessible and inexpensive enough to produce the parts.

Have a read here. https://omegaforums.net/threads/nic...ependent-watchmakers.27488/page-2#post-307760

M'Bob · Apr 20, 2018

Basset Hound
Is that the case if all the parts are replacement parts? Would it still be an “original” watch? I know that extreme wouldn’t happen but we would all draw the line at a different point.

The point is, based on the criteria I outlined, you wouldn't know, would you?

oddboy · Apr 20, 2018

M'Bob
The point is, based on the criteria I outlined, you wouldn't know, would you?

Would you still expect disclosure in such a circumstance?

M'Bob · Apr 20, 2018

oddboy
Would you still expect disclosure in such a circumstance?

Can't find a reason why I would care either way.

That being said: my position is a hypothetical one. In reality, there would be a reason why all these identically churned out parts would have needed to be replaced..damage, or excessive wear. In that case, yes, one should know.

However, if someone, let's say you or Gemini4, had a trove of NOS original parts, cases, bezels, etc., and you cobbled together a watch (well, maybe Archer did..), I wouldn't care a wit if they hadn't all been birthed together. I would buy that watch in a heartbeat, and at the going rate.

oddboy · Apr 20, 2018

Duly noted! 😀

'How about if I cobbled one together but used a seamaster 321 instead of a speedy movement? Say if the movement was contemporary to the speedy reference and matched in all aspects (clutch bridge, regulator indicator, etc), just from the wrong serial range?

....and to go one step further, there seem to have been sea and speedmaster movements within the same 1000, so within potentially a digit or two of each other. .

(Not picking on you, honestly curious for a range of views)

M'Bob · Apr 20, 2018

oddboy
Duly noted! 😀

'How about if I cobbled one together but used a seamaster 321 instead of a speedy movement? Say if the movement was contemporary to the speedy reference and matched in all aspects (clutch bridge, regulator indicator, etc), just from the wrong serial range?

....and to go one step further, there seem to have been sea and speedmaster movements within the same 1000, so within potentially a digit or two of each other. .

(Not picking on you, honestly curious for a range of views)

"Wrong serial range," meaning, if an extract were ordered, it would show that the movement came from a different model? Ok (for me) if informed ahead of time, and priced accordingly. Also ok if no one could tell the difference. Not otherwise.

And let me ask you a question: some guys don't mind fake boobs. I do. But there's a new procedure, called a fat to breast transfer. This is where they shave fat off a gal's stomach, butt, or legs, and transfer it to make her boobs larger.

After the scars heal, and unlike fake boobs, you can't really tell. Didn't really come that way, but using original parts. That bother you?

oddboy · Apr 20, 2018

Got any pics? 😁

Foo2rama · Apr 21, 2018

@oddboy great piece and tangential to something that has been bothering me for awhile. 2 pieces one with a killer case and bezel with average dial and hands, the other with a killer dial and hands and mediocre case go for say 3200. Combine them and ones worth 2800 the other 5k... not as big an issue with 321’s but -7x it happens a lot.

Too me it’s an unintended consequence of the price chart and we see grouping of prices at good and then near collector. It’s rare to find a watch in the middle esp on 145.022’s . I know I’m guilty of it when appraising a piece and others here are too.

Any thoughts on this?

Oddboy’s World of Vintage Speedmaster Parts

STANDY

Basset Hound

oddboy

M'Bob

gemini4

M'Bob

Archer

Archer

oddboy

Basset Hound

sxl2004

henrikaa

oddboy

M'Bob

oddboy

M'Bob

oddboy

M'Bob

oddboy

Foo2rama

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