Military Longines

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I'm not sure one could consider it a good investment... if you look at your likely return.

There are far better things to invest in if making profit is you goal.

Very few watches are good investments.

@oinkitt we all have different perceptions of what is and isn’t a good investment. I enjoy vintage watches and if I can wear and enjoy one and eventually if/when the time to sell comes I can get my money back I consider that a very good investment. I do not own many vintage watches that I could not sell for more than I paid but that is not the reason I own the watches I do.
 
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@oinkitt we all have different perceptions of what is and isn’t a good investment. I enjoy vintage watches and if I can wear and enjoy one and eventually if/when the time to sell comes I can get my money back I consider that a very good investment. I do not own many vintage watches that I could not sell for more than I paid but that is not the reason I own the watches I do.

investment
[ɪnˈvɛs(t)m(ə)nt]
NOUN
  1. the action or process of investing money for profit.
This was how you were using the word in your posts.

You could say you were "investing" with the expectation of enjoyment but this was clearly not the inference in your posts.
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investment
[ɪnˈvɛs(t)m(ə)nt]
NOUN
  1. the action or process of investing money for profit.
This was how you were using the word in your posts.

You could say you were "investing" with the expectation of enjoyment but this was clearly not the inference in your posts.


@oinkitt I’ll refer you to you Christopher Hitchens quote
 
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@oinkitt I’ll refer you to you Christopher Hitchens quote

That doesn't work in refuting my claim!!! You will note, I provided evidence, you did not!!!

I will quote the great Christopher Hitchens once again.

"Non-basic, empirical claims which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

This is known as Hitchens's razor.

Hitchens's razor is an epistemological razor expressed by writer Christopher Hitchens. It says that the burden of proof regarding the truthfulness of a claim lies with the one who makes the claim; if this burden is not met, then the claim is unfounded, and its opponents need not argue further in order to dismiss it.

You used the term "invest" as in investing money for profit....... and you used it in that way to enhance your prospect of selling the item. To say you didn't is disingenuous in the extreme.

Having said that........As Christopher would say.... with that, "I rest my case".
 
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Hi @obstando, point taken about people not buying those watches out of ideology but simply out of their interest in horology.

As far as it being “under the radar”, if may well be that non specialized collectors aren’t aware of the model— but if so frankly believe the reason is because of the provenance, as it is well known to military watch collectors.

It so happens I followed those quite closely for the past few years and indeed they have appreciated as all Longines and issued watches of the era— however I believe their provenance has held them back compared to other watches.

6 years ago their price was about the same as the price of a rare steel Omega 6B/159– one could find either for about 400/500 euros.

By 2017-2018, Longines DH watches could be found for about 700 euros - while the price of the steel 6B/159 had already gone past 1200 euros.
At the same time, civilian Longines watches, with six notch case backs, a black radium gilt dial and no step case were being traded for 1200 euros. They may have been a tad larger at close to 33mm but they didn’t have a stepped case.

So their price in the past certainly has not progressed the way other watches of similar size and quality have.
The debates I’ve seen about German watches on the Military Watch Ressource forum have led me to believe provenance was the reason for that price differential.

I’ve seen at least one dealer recently (ie in the past 3 months) offer this exact model without disclosing it is a German WWII military watch and I have no doubt the reason is because the dealer in question perceived it as a hindrance. Have you ever seen a British or American issued watch being sold without it being trumpeted that it’s a military watch?

Of course you may find it proves your point the watch has been under-rated - and as you say markets can change.
However I can only speak about what I observed.
The rest is speculation.
I accept however that you are stating your honest belief.

I agree totally. There's no doubt that the DH watches sell at a discount compared to equivalent civilian watches, and common sense dictates that this is due to a negative association with their provenance. And obviously they are hugely discounted compared to British-issued WWII watches. The OP can argue to the contrary, but I think most members will see the logic.

Investment involves buying and selling, so if the OP believes that they will become more accepted over time, then they will also become less discounted. Maybe that will happen in the future, especially if white supremacist and neo-Nazi movements continue to grow around the world, which could lead to increased nostalgia for these items. But the OP is wrong if he thinks they are doing well compared to the market as a whole, especially the vintage military market, they are not. @Syrte is right on with her market analysis IMO.

@Syrte I do not know of any military watch collectors that do it for anything other than for the love of the watches - I have never heard collectors extol the virtue of political idealism whether it be Germans in WW2 or Americans in Vietnam..

This is total BS. There are definitely neo-Nazis that collect all types of Naxi memorabilia.
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I agree totally. There's no doubt that the DH watches sell at a discount compared to equivalent civilian watches, and common sense dictates that this is due to a negative association with their provenance. And obviously they are hugely discounted compared to British-issued WWII watches. The OP can argue to the contrary, but I think most members will see the logic.

Investment involves buying and selling, so if the OP believes that they will become more accepted over time, then they will also become less discounted. Maybe that will happen in the future, especially if white supremacist and neo-Nazi movements continue to grow around the world, which could lead to increased nostalgia for these items. But the OP is wrong if he thinks they are doing well compared to the market as a whole, especially the vintage military market, they are not. @Syrte is right on with her market analysis IMO.



This is total BS. There are definitely neo-Nazis that collect all types of Naxi memorabilia.

@Dan S you can disagree and put your point of view over but do not call me a liar when I say that I do not know military watch collectors that collect for the politics rather than the watches. You don’t know me or who I know so how dare you make such a statement. Maybe you know those sort of collectors - good for you if that’s the case but they are not the circle of collectors I associate with.
 
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@Dan S you can disagree and put your point of view over but do not call me a liar when I say that I do not know military watch collectors that collect for the politics rather than the watches. You don’t know me or who I know so how dare you make such a statement. Maybe you know those sort of collectors - good for you if that’s the case but they are not the circle of collectors I associate with.

So, now you take a holier than thou approach.

@Dan S didnt call you a liar.

Dan inferred that some people collect third reich memorabilia as they admire the ideology.

Dan did not assert that you knew of such persons or that you associate with same.

Keep digging that hole!!!
 
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I think it was because you said “know of” rather than “know”, and whilst I personally don’t know (or know of) any collectors that have neo-nazi ideology I’m not naive enough to think they aren’t out there.
 
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@Dan S you can disagree and put your point of view over but do not call me a liar when I say that I do not know military watch collectors that collect for the politics rather than the watches. You don’t know me or who I know so how dare you make such a statement. Maybe you know those sort of collectors - good for you if that’s the case but they are not the circle of collectors I associate with.

Don't play games with semantics. Read my post and my point is totally clear.
 
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@Dan S

This is what you wrote in response to my statement

obstando said:
@@Syrte I do not know of any military watch collectors that do it for anything other than for the love of the watches - I have never heard collectors extol the virtue of political idealism whether it be Germans in WW2 or Americans in Vietnam..

This is total BS. There are definitely neo-Nazis that collect all types of Naxi memorabilia.

That is not semantics - you are calling my statement BS. It is totally clear to me however many times I read it. I am not stating there aren't collectors that do collect for the ideology of a watch but I am stating that I do not know them.

This post is about a watch made by a Swiss company that happened to supply watches to many different nations and their armed forces. I am not interested in discussing the ideology of any military regime as that is not really for a watch discussion board. Military watches are not for everyone but we all have equal rights to our opinions and maybe more respect is needed when someone's opinion differs to your own. There are many things in life I don't like but I don't feel the need to comment on a thread on any forum either for attention or confrontation. I'll leave it there as some people seem to have turned this thread into something it should never have been.
 
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@Dan S

This is what you wrote in response to my statement

obstando said:
@@Syrte I do not know of any military watch collectors that do it for anything other than for the love of the watches - I have never heard collectors extol the virtue of political idealism whether it be Germans in WW2 or Americans in Vietnam..

This is total BS. There are definitely neo-Nazis that collect all types of Naxi memorabilia.

That is not semantics - you are calling my statement BS. It is totally clear to me however many times I read it. I am not stating there aren't collectors that do collect for the ideology of a watch but I am stating that I do not know them.

This post is about a watch made by a Swiss company that happened to supply watches to many different nations and their armed forces. I am not interested in discussing the ideology of any military regime as that is not really for a watch discussion board. Military watches are not for everyone but we all have equal rights to our opinions and maybe more respect is needed when someone's opinion differs to your own. There are many things in life I don't like but I don't feel the need to comment on a thread on any forum either for attention or confrontation. I'll leave it there as some people seem to have turned this thread into something it should never have been.

Dig, dig, dig!!!
 
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I am not stating there aren't collectors that do collect for the ideology of a watch but I am stating that I do not know them....
I don't feel the need to comment on a thread on any forum either for attention or confrontation. I'll leave it there as some people seem to have turned this thread into something it should never have been.

@obstando sometimes on forums people write a bit quickly and what they write exceeds what they intended.

I’ll speak for myself, I accept you do not personally know any or associate with people whose interest is sparked by ideokogy but you cannot deny they exist.

However from a position of moral neutrality regarding the object, to accusing people (including myself) of inappropriately discussing the provenance I think is quite a leap— which I strongly reject.
Remember the discussion started when you offered the watch for sale and labeled it a “good investment”.

For me I would say there are several lines,

1/ disassociating the watch from its history and use, @oinkitt put it best, objects are not responsible for humans— but you can’t deny the relevance of provenance discussion as for every vintage watch.

2/ objects carrying the eagles and swastika, different debate due to the symbols-

3/ “everybody’s done bad things”-
Moral equivalencies IMHO constitute oblivion and is unfair to everyone.
The German people have been extraordinary in how they have dealt with the past - we also owe them the recognition and to equate all conflicts is also an insult to their unprecedented effort.

Every massacre, every crime has its name and specificities.
We owe the truth - and the specifics—to the Indians who died by the hundreds of thousands because of Churchill’s policies, the people in Algeria tortured by the French, the people of Rwanda and Congo, the Japanese victims of the atomic bomb and the Asian victims of Japanese troops, the Poles who were hunted down by the nazis and of whom 3 million christians died during WWII, and millions of others.

And in the case of WWII Germany, the specifics are indeed the ideology— it wasn’t about political power, or about exploiting wealth, it was a project to create a living space for a supposedly superior race by clearing Europe of its supposedly inferior people - it is a project to conquer and destroy most of Europe.
This project targeted and killed tens of millions of people of all creeds worldwide.

And as @oinkitt again has said, I rest my case.
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@Syrte I have not raised any concerns about discussing the provenance of this watch and have been happy to do so - the watch is what it is and comes with it's military history. What I had an issue with was that the thread had deteriorated into a discussion about the ideologies of warfare and moved away from the watch itself. That kind of discussion would warrant a thread of it's own. As you, I and others have said a watch is an inanimate object and we actually all agree on that. Nowhere have I raised anything regarding swastikas or any ideological or political symbols on watches nor have I stated that "everybody's done bad things".
With regard to my comment regarding a good investment I stand by that comment and as has been mentioned by others the prices of this model have increased over the years. Whether the prices achieved have increased by the same percentage as other Longines military watches is irrelevant as I didn't state it was the fastest appreciating watch. If you feel that my sales post for this watch was misleading or inaccurate then we can disagree - I see many sales adverts for watches that would make Enid Blyton proud.
I do not know where you live and what your background is but I live in a country that has been attacked many times, lived under the boot of an unwelcome occupier and after a long history of conflict has finally achieved some sort of peace - that does not make me view a military watch any differently irrespective of which country it was issued by.
I have no issue with what you have contributed to this thread and your comments have made for healthy discussion. Sadly others have dragged it down to a more childish level.