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obstando
·A Longines 5130 with 12.68z movement sent from Longines to their Berlin agent Bauermeister in January 1943 and issued to the German army
Military Longines
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Modest_Proposal
·I know very little about the impact WW2 had on Germany's access to watches (mostly Swiss), if somebody has links to articles or forums posts on the subject.
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BlueHands
·Found this article times ago, describes the location of Longines agent Bauermeister in Berlin. The building was owned by the Longines company since 1920 and was destroyed in 1945 with end of the war. All the buildings around were also destroyed and demolished and today you find no more tracks.
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Syrte
·I know very little about the impact WW2 had on Germany's access to watches (mostly Swiss), if somebody has links to articles or forums posts on the subject.
There’s tons on MWR about German military issued watches during WWII.
The nazi regime spent quite a lot on top grade military equipment and watches like the Wehrmacht watch above known as « DH » (Dienstuhr Heer as I understand) watches were procured from Longines, Helvetia, MIMO and other companies.
From the top of my head Zenith and I think Juvenia or Minerva also supplied some of those watches.
Swiss companies also procured similarly styled Luftwaffe watches with the marking « D » at the back.
The Swiss dealer known as Lorologiese has been tracking DH watches and has a blog on his web site.
There were also swiss supplied KM «(Kriegsmarine aka war navy) watches,
The famous Hanhart pilot chronographs were German made of course.
In summary many Swiss companies supplied Germany’s WWII government with large number of watches— even apparently Omega, even though that was not previously known and those watches were not the subject of public procurement contracts and IIRC do not carry military markings.
@bubba48 has a letter from Omega’s history department revealing Germany made purchases from Omega through purchasers and intermediaries.
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CaptainWinsor
·In 1940 and throughout the war, the Zenith factory along with other French brands in Besançon were commandeered by German forces and used to make watch and timing instruments. I have some correspondence from Zenith’s Paris office to a retailer in occupied France detailing how watch shipments may be delayed or cut off as Besançon will now be producing for the German war effort.
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Dan S
·I'd have no interest in owning something issued to a Nazi soldier. Not all provenance is the same IMO.
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Syrte
·Had I imagined I was contributing to a future sales post of a nazii watch I would certainly have refrained to answer @Modest_Proposal’s question.
Those watches are not welcome in my home either.
Those watches are not welcome in my home either.
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Radiumpassion
·Good that people are different. I do not discrimenate vintage watches or collectors
because of provenance.....
because of provenance.....
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Syrte
·It’s everyone’s personal choice but the sentiment they evoke is clearly factored into their pricing.
Military watch collectors have known about them for years - and the provenance debates have made the market for them smaller, at least for now among the anglo american crowd.
People should at least be aware if they’re going to bet on future appreciation.
PS- I’m noticing that the OP has now deleted his/ her post promoting the sales post and which prompted the newer comments.
Military watch collectors have known about them for years - and the provenance debates have made the market for them smaller, at least for now among the anglo american crowd.
People should at least be aware if they’re going to bet on future appreciation.
PS- I’m noticing that the OP has now deleted his/ her post promoting the sales post and which prompted the newer comments.
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oinkitt
·I think one has to separate the watch from the original owner. The watch didn't commit crimes against humanity.
I'm sure we would all like to think that we would be stanch resisters, hiding and protecting Jews and undermining the Nazi cause.... but if we were in the same position with our lives on the line... would we?????
War brings out the worst in humanity, both sides did shameful things in WW2. The watches used by the participants were not the catalyst.
Having said that, I don't own any of these watches but I don't pass judgement on those who do.
I'm sure we would all like to think that we would be stanch resisters, hiding and protecting Jews and undermining the Nazi cause.... but if we were in the same position with our lives on the line... would we?????
War brings out the worst in humanity, both sides did shameful things in WW2. The watches used by the participants were not the catalyst.
Having said that, I don't own any of these watches but I don't pass judgement on those who do.
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Syrte
·@oinkitt you make a very good and powerful argument. Watches are inert objects and this one doesn’t carry the Swastika or any of the nazi symbols found on certain watches of the same era.
However, there’s a double standard.
When a watch has been worn by a single owner who happens to be a famous person or a war hero how much premium does that place on the object?
One might find it ridiculous fetishism— at least I do— as the watch is not the person. Yet people pay a lot of money when the provenance is established.
And even when the provenance is not established how many times have you heard collectors gushing over their vintage watches as if it were a person, and ooohing and aaahing, «ooh, the stories this could tell if it could speak »... or even more in the case of military watch collectors imagining the unsung heroes that wore their watches?
Well in this case.... the object also carries imagination and not everyone likes the story. If it cuts one way, it will cut the other.
Of course all wars are terrible but if there’s a clear cut case where not all things are morally equal this must be the one.
Perhaps seen from Australia it feels very far away but seen from Europe it’s very real. The wounds cut deep and are passed down generations.
For sure not everyone would have resisted or been better than anyone else, and no one’s giving lessons, however Karma’s a bitch and not evryone wants the reminder of bad memories on their wrists.
That being said, again it’s very personal.
It surely would be a much different matter if the watch were carrying Nazi symbols or had been used by what have been recognized as criminal organizations in international law- such as the SS. (In which case the sale would be illegal in a number of countries and on Ebay).
In this case the watch was issued to the regular army so it’s all fine and permissible. The only thing that started this discussion was the seller’s use of this subforum as a promotional tool to showcase his sale, plus the assertion in the sales post that’s it’s a « rare » « under the radar » item that’s a « good investment ».
However, there’s a double standard.
When a watch has been worn by a single owner who happens to be a famous person or a war hero how much premium does that place on the object?
One might find it ridiculous fetishism— at least I do— as the watch is not the person. Yet people pay a lot of money when the provenance is established.
And even when the provenance is not established how many times have you heard collectors gushing over their vintage watches as if it were a person, and ooohing and aaahing, «ooh, the stories this could tell if it could speak »... or even more in the case of military watch collectors imagining the unsung heroes that wore their watches?
Well in this case.... the object also carries imagination and not everyone likes the story. If it cuts one way, it will cut the other.
Of course all wars are terrible but if there’s a clear cut case where not all things are morally equal this must be the one.
Perhaps seen from Australia it feels very far away but seen from Europe it’s very real. The wounds cut deep and are passed down generations.
For sure not everyone would have resisted or been better than anyone else, and no one’s giving lessons, however Karma’s a bitch and not evryone wants the reminder of bad memories on their wrists.
That being said, again it’s very personal.
It surely would be a much different matter if the watch were carrying Nazi symbols or had been used by what have been recognized as criminal organizations in international law- such as the SS. (In which case the sale would be illegal in a number of countries and on Ebay).
In this case the watch was issued to the regular army so it’s all fine and permissible. The only thing that started this discussion was the seller’s use of this subforum as a promotional tool to showcase his sale, plus the assertion in the sales post that’s it’s a « rare » « under the radar » item that’s a « good investment ».
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oinkitt
·@oinkitt you make a very good and powerful argument. Watches are inert objects and this one doesn’t carry the Swastika or any of the nazi symbols found on certain watches of the same era.
However, there’s a double standard.
When a watch has been worn by a single owner who happens to be a famous person or a war hero how much premium does that place on the object?
One might find it ridiculous fetishism— at least I do— as the watch is not the person. Yet people pay a lot of money when the provenance is established.
And even when the provenance is not established how many times have you heard collectors gushing over their vintage watches as if it were a person, and ooohing and aaahing, «ooh, the stories this could tell if it could speak »... or even more in the case of military watch collectors imagining the unsung heroes that wore their watches?
Well in this case.... the object also carries imagination and not everuone likes the story. If it cuts one way, it will cut the other.
Of course all wars are terrible but if there’s a clear cut case where not all things are equal there must be one.
Perhaps seen from Australia it feels very far away but seen from Europe it’s very real. The wounds cut deep and are passed down generations.
For sure not everyone would have resisted or been better than anyone else, and no one’s giving lessons, however Karma’s a bitch and not evryone wants the reminder of bad memories on their wrists.
If some people
@Syrte You bring up valid points. Personally, I don't place any premium on the notoriety of the former owner of any timepiece. Having said that, I do find the inscriptions interesting and I enjoy the research that follows on from them. I'm also not one "to oooh and aaah about the stories an item could tell", I laugh at persons who engage in such follies!!!!
I don't find the "view" from Australia to be any different than that from Europe. Thousands of young ANZAC's paid the ultimate price trying to liberate Europe and never came home.
I can understand someone not wanting to own a watch precured by the third reich, but I'm not one of them. I look at it this way, if I found out tomorrow that something I owned was previously owned by someone I found to be distasteful, would it worry me?, could I change the fact? should I get rid of it? Does it mean I endorse their actions? In reality it has nothing to do with me and there is nothing I can do about it.
About 30 years ago, I cleared out an estate. In a drawer I found items that were connected to the hitler youth. I still have them in a box somewhere. A few years ago I found out my birth mother was Jewish, this didn't change my view of the items. To me they are just historic items. It doesn't effect me to be in possession of them nor do I see it as a stain on my character. Having said that, I wouldn't like them to end up in the possession of someone that glorified that ideology. I will probably donate them to the war memorial next time I go there.
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oinkitt
·
I'm not sure about that. They are just my opinions.
I am well known for my outlandish ideas... many people consider me to be a bit of a prick.
I will quote the late great Christopher Hitchens.
“My own opinion is enough for me, and I claim the right to have it defended against any consensus, any majority, anywhere, any place, any time. And anyone who disagrees with this can pick a number, get in line, and kiss my ass.”
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Andy_timeman
·I think most countries have considerable skeletons in the closet... old and new. England et al have a shocking colonial past along with many other nations. Most poor souls who have had to fight often have no choice in who they were fighting and the orders they followed. @oinkitt comments all very valid and true. It is easy to comment from afar and unattached. In more recent times most western countries governments who went into war for the Weapons of Mass destruction of Sadam have their own very dirty laundry. How many Iraqis lives were destroyed there and across the middle east for the War on terror.. is the average American, French, Aussie or Italian necessarily to blame....?? What about 3million dead Vietnamese? I have a pair of watches that one of Italy's most famous pilots used to navigate in WWII from Rome to Tokyo and back.. they were simply tasked with an assignment they carried out dutifully. Imho I dare say most military watches imho fall into that space. No different in my opinion than a Seikosha or Japanese Weems being worn in Pearl Harbour. Not everyone's cup of tea but with a history - still sort after and collectable nonetheless. Each to their own...
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obstando
·It’s everyone’s personal choice but the sentiment they evoke is clearly factored into their pricing.
Military watch collectors have known about them for years - and the provenance debates have made the market for them smaller, at least for now among the anglo american crowd.
People should at least be aware if they’re going to bet on future appreciation.
PS- I’m noticing that the OP has now deleted his/ her post promoting the sales post and which prompted the newer comments.
@Syrte I have not deleted any post of mine regarding this watch
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obstando
·@oinkitt you make a very good and powerful argument. Watches are inert objects and this one doesn’t carry the Swastika or any of the nazi symbols found on certain watches of the same era.
However, there’s a double standard.
When a watch has been worn by a single owner who happens to be a famous person or a war hero how much premium does that place on the object?
One might find it ridiculous fetishism— at least I do— as the watch is not the person. Yet people pay a lot of money when the provenance is established.
And even when the provenance is not established how many times have you heard collectors gushing over their vintage watches as if it were a person, and ooohing and aaahing, «ooh, the stories this could tell if it could speak »... or even more in the case of military watch collectors imagining the unsung heroes that wore their watches?
Well in this case.... the object also carries imagination and not everyone likes the story. If it cuts one way, it will cut the other.
Of course all wars are terrible but if there’s a clear cut case where not all things are morally equal this must be the one.
Perhaps seen from Australia it feels very far away but seen from Europe it’s very real. The wounds cut deep and are passed down generations.
For sure not everyone would have resisted or been better than anyone else, and no one’s giving lessons, however Karma’s a bitch and not evryone wants the reminder of bad memories on their wrists.
That being said, again it’s very personal.
It surely would be a much different matter if the watch were carrying Nazi symbols or had been used by what have been recognized as criminal organizations in international law- such as the SS. (In which case the sale would be illegal in a number of countries and on Ebay).
In this case the watch was issued to the regular army so it’s all fine and permissible. The only thing that started this discussion was the seller’s use of this subforum as a promotional tool to showcase his sale, plus the assertion in the sales post that’s it’s a « rare » « under the radar » item that’s a « good investment ».
@Syrte my post was not put on this sub-forum to promote the sale of the watch in any way. When this was posted I had no intention of selling it but having acquired another one decided to list it for sale. You have made it perfectly clear that you don’t like German issued watches and it is of course your prerogative. There are many others that do and I do not know of any military watch collectors that do it for anything other than for the love of the watches - I have never heard collectors extol the virtue of political idealism whether it be Germans in WW2 or Americans in Vietnam. As someone that has collected military watches for many years I would completely back my comment that this model is very much under the radar. If you do research on how the prices of this model have increased over recent years you may understand my comment that I view this as a good investment. Of course markets can change but at the moment prices for military watches are particularly strong.
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oinkitt
·@Syrte my post was not put on this sub-forum to promote the sale of the watch in any way. When this was posted I had no intention of selling it but having acquired another one decided to list it for sale. You have made it perfectly clear that you don’t like German issued watches and it is of course your prerogative. There are many others that do and I do not know of any military watch collectors that do it for anything other than for the love of the watches - I have never heard collectors extol the virtue of political idealism whether it be Germans in WW2 or Americans in Vietnam. As someone that has collected military watches for many years I would completely back my comment that this model is very much under the radar. If you do research on how the prices of this model have increased over recent years you may understand my comment that I view this as a good investment. Of course markets can change but at the moment prices for military watches are particularly strong.
I'm not sure one could consider it a good investment... if you look at your likely return.
There are far better things to invest in if making profit is you goal.
Very few watches are good investments.
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Syrte
·@Syrte my post was not put on this sub-forum to promote the sale of the watch in any way. When this was posted I had no intention of selling it but having acquired another one decided to list it for sale. You have made it perfectly clear that you don’t like German issued watches and it is of course your prerogative. There are many others that do and I do not know of any military watch collectors that do it for anything other than for the love of the watches - I have never heard collectors extol the virtue of political idealism whether it be Germans in WW2 or Americans in Vietnam. As someone that has collected military watches for many years I would completely back my comment that this model is very much under the radar. If you do research on how the prices of this model have increased over recent years you may understand my comment that I view this as a good investment. Of course markets can change but at the moment prices for military watches are particularly strong.
Hi @obstando, point taken about people not buying those watches out of ideology but simply out of their interest in horology.
As far as it being “under the radar”, if may well be that non specialized collectors aren’t aware of the model— but if so frankly believe the reason is because of the provenance, as it is well known to military watch collectors.
It so happens I followed those quite closely for the past few years and indeed they have appreciated as all Longines and issued watches of the era— however I believe their provenance has held them back compared to other watches.
6 years ago their price was about the same as the price of a rare steel Omega 6B/159– one could find either for about 400/500 euros.
By 2017-2018, Longines DH watches could be found for about 700 euros - while the price of the steel 6B/159 had already gone past 1200 euros.
At the same time, civilian Longines watches, with six notch case backs, a black radium gilt dial and no step case were being traded for 1200 euros. They may have been a tad larger at close to 33mm but they didn’t have a stepped case.
So their price in the past certainly has not progressed the way other watches of similar size and quality have.
The debates I’ve seen about German watches on the Military Watch Ressource forum have led me to believe provenance was the reason for that price differential.
I’ve seen at least one dealer recently (ie in the past 3 months) offer this exact model without disclosing it is a German WWII military watch and I have no doubt the reason is because the dealer in question perceived it as a hindrance. Have you ever seen a British or American issued watch being sold without it being trumpeted that it’s a military watch?
Of course you may find it proves your point the watch has been under-rated - and as you say markets can change.
However I can only speak about what I observed.
The rest is speculation.
I accept however that you are stating your honest belief.
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