Laughable ‘For Sale’ threads recently

My understanding is that the price guide is based on actual data, but my interpretation is that William (@Spacefruit) has higher standards for condition than most sellers. So a seller may be asking a price based on a belief that their watch is in Very Good condition, whereas William would probably classify it as Good or Fair. So when I am using that price guide, I try to see the Speedmaster world through William's eyes, and ask how he would view the condition of a particular watch. 😉


Ultimately, it is the mods who will decide what is reasonable, regardless of our thoughts on the matter. I imagine that there is some concern about whether widespread criticism of watches for sale will affect the collegiality of the forum.

William very clearly says that his price guide is a guide. He also says it is his guide and he would be very happy if someone else produced one if they would like a better one. He is making it available for use voluntarily.

The fact is that his is a good tool. Unfortunately it is sometimes followed religiously and not used as the guide it was intended but as a rule to apply, at least in my experience. It is frustrating when people use the guide to stipulate what a price should be as opposed to examing a watch against other similar watches.

I agree that the OF mods should decide the rules and quite happy to follow any of their dictates. Any comment I make is only offered as an opinion to be considered in the discussion.

Please don't kick me off mods. 😀

What drives me mad is when I see a ...."Oh! A new listing!" Only to realize that it's a bumped item from early 2019 at double what I would pay for said piece with never a price reduction. A wasted 30 seconds of my life...

When pricing a watch for sale, it's all about comps. We know what a 1675 is worth in all various conditions to the minutia. Speedy's- there is literally a guide to them- there is no ambiguity. The market is in tremendous flux right now so basing prices off of what we knew even last year could be very outdated- but research and logic is key to reasonable pricing.
Since nobody here is choosing to mention any specific watch, let's use one that has been mentioned obliquely as a teachable moment.
I am not trying to shame the seller- to the contrary, I hope to educate and open a discussion on how to price watches for which little information exists. The watch in question is an interesting watch, and the seller admits he knows nothing about it- but some of us know a little something about skin divers, and some knowledge of the brand (who's name sounds like an Industiral company from Pittsburgh in the 50's) and have a small (ok, maybe not small) collection of similar watches.
The brand itself is nothing special, I have followed them for some time on eBay as there are a few gems- like the one being offered in our FS section- that pop up every few months. Otherwise they are fairly pedestrian watches with chrome or gold plating, cheap but known Swiss movements and pretty boring designs. The occasional divers I've seen pop up from this brand, like the one being offered here, are similar to many of the mid-line 60's skin divers with stainless cases, Swiss movements (FHF, Felsa, AS and occasionally ETA) using off the shelf parts. Even though this brand isn't well known, the formula of the watch is.
The top of the food chain for stainless 60's skin divers were made by brands like BP, Omega (SM120) Longines etc. These are the top of the market for the style and priced accordingly. For the sake of this exercise, let's call them Tier1.
Below that are marquis branded watches like the Helbros Invincible, Zodiac Seawolf, Wittnauer skin diver and Bulova Snorkel. These trade in the $4-700 range depending on condition (and in the case of the Helbros- orgin and changes during the run) and prices can be tracked easily these we'll call Tier2.


Below that are quality made skin divers with stainless cases and OTS Swiss movements that were made on spec with house branding (usually for department or jewelry stores), or formerly renowned brands that are now outsourced- Traditions for Sears (Oris), Waltham, Elgin (the stainless ones) Vantage (Hamilton) Paul Peugeot, Paul Portinoux, Jules Jergensen etc. These watches are generally well made and can be a great value- typically trading for around $250-500 depending on condition, dial configuration and size. This area of the market is massive with brands nobody has ever heard of but the cases, hands, movements and dials are almost a mix and match- they pretty much all came from the same spec books and could be ordered by the gross with whatever name you wanted on the dial (Wakmann and Clebar fall into this catagory with Chrono's as an on-spec supplier as well as self-branded). These are Tier3

Underneath that are cheap chrome plated divers. Some were nicely made with decent invexpensive Swiss movements- some have lovely dials and hand sets. But these were designed to a very low price point and meant to be fashion watches and not truly water-sport watches. They typically go for between $50-200 depending on style and condition-these are Tier4

Below that are the single jeweled throw-away watches that have recently seen rediculous prices on eBay. I wouldn't pay $30 for these- and this running and near flawless, but apparently eBay buyers fee differently about them- I have seen these sell recently for $100-200.

Back to the watch in question- this watch falls into Tier3. It's a stainless case with unknown movement. Seller can't open the back- which is fine, not all of us have the knowledge or correct tools, but we can assume it's a mid-line Swiss movement. Case is similar to many of the tier3 divers, bezel similar to the French Helbros. Dial is unique in that it's like an Eberhard, but it is not an Eberhard, nor was the company ever affiliated with Eberhard to any history I can find- so appearance is where the similarity ends. Hands are standard arrow hands of the period.
As for condition- case has lots of wear commensurate with a watch well worn, back is heavily worn, dial has moisture damage (some may call it patina), and lume was applied sloppily. I don't doubt the lume is original, but not a high quality application.
So we know that this watch is from a lower to mid-tier brand, it's a tier3 and is in fair condition. The dial is a unique style for the period so points added for that. Based on comps, I would put the value of this watch around $250-400. Asking $450 and accepting $350-400 would be about fair practice IMO.

Just because you don't know a brand or haven't ever seen one like it doesn't make it vaLuable. Simple research can tell you much about an unknown watch and where it fits into the maket place. Pulling numbers from the air is what outrages most collectors. We want facts, merits, comps-a rationale for the pricing.

Ha, you’re right. Found the dirty little devil!

I am a sucker for the Belair Seapearl, though 😀

@JwRosenthal Theoretical question for you. Is your comment about the different tiers inappropriate to add to the watch FS (aside from the fact that you don't have time for that on each sale)? I think it would be a reasonable comment on a FS thread and not at all inappropriate.

This is just a thought exercise. Whether it is not permissible to comment or it, either way is fine with me.

An example to consider is Bringatrailer.com (BAT). BAT is an auction site for vehicles (mostly) that allows comments. The comments typically come from people knowledgable about the model being sold, with the occasional "nice car, I had that when I was young." But for the most part, the questions are detailed and specific.

If you decide to sell on BAT you need to be honest, detailed and upfront about all the positives and particularly the negatives, as the commentators will notice. Over time, the vehicles on BAT have gotten nicer and the prices are on the higher end compared to other auctions. Part of the reason is that the buyers get the benefit of the collective knowledge of the community and gain some level of confidence about buying over the internet. It also attracts honesty in the seller. (Note that negative comments (trolls) can be flagged and deleted.) For the most part, it is polite, although there are a lot of pundits with no intention of bidding. Still, they contribute in their own way.

The main difference is that it is an auction site without the preset price. So this example does not apply to the question about commenting on the price.

I am not advocating for a change or to allow comments. I do think there are some positive results from allowing comments. But I am not one of the people who would have to monitor or deal with all the comments. What ain't broke don't need fixing is a good principle. Just something to consider.

But in my line of work it’s still strange when somebody puts up a list of prices which suggests a certain level of objectivity while the maker of the list has a (maybe big or small) personal interest in the subject (in the sence of collecting and selling speedmasters himself). For the imaging it’s not the best picture. If I did'nt know the contributions from @Spacefruit to this forum and his integrity normally I would have said the list is debatable.

Haha. I hate lists as well. Especially when your name is on it...

To add, its head only so the bracelet shown in the images adds no value.

Agreed- it is just a thought exercise. There is no actual "tier system" for skin divers, I am just breaking them up into easily understandable catagories based on what we know is out there and trying to apply a metric. There are always outliers and grey areas (like the BP made Walthams for example) and watches like those are well documented and blow the bell curve (and to counter- Sicura chrome plated skin divers were not made by Breitling!).
What we are willing to pay as a boots on the ground collector, versus what watches actually sell for on eBay (which is a true market barometer- eBay is they way many of us buy these days)- we can safely make value estimates by finding comps that are similar based on construction and common parts that are known to other watches. Applying an abitrary value based on design elements being similar to a much more expensive watch would be just as inane as saying my 1930's colonial revival house looks similar to the White House in style, so I should expect Pennsylvania Ave real estate prices.

But using a constructed metric based on comps would put the watch in question into the tier3 catagory with the ones I've shown- it's a smaller, but known inexpensive brand, all stainless case (which was an element of a better skin diver) probably has a Swiss movment of decent design, and an attractive dial/hands design. Even with no name on the dial, it would fit into that catagory.