Just bought a 105.003 and need some help...

[codingcpa]

Hello, this is my first post here so hope I'm not breaking any rules!

I bought this vintage speedmaster on ebay last week with just some poor quality photos to go by. I received the watch today and was a little bit disappointed at the quality although I should have expected it based on how much I paid.

Here are some things I've noted based on research from these forums and from speedmaster101.com (thank you so much to maker of that site):

- third party bracelet
- crown maybe a replacement?
- no clue on the pushers
- chrono second hand probably not original
- dial is pretty bad - it has applied logo with no "professional" and has a stepped dial, but has a weird glossy texture and is completely missing "SWISS MADE" .
- lugs have been polished, even the sides which are normally supposed to be brushed from what I can tell.
- watch runs and chronograph functions are working, however, the hours subdial hand has fallen off


Some questions:
1. Anyone have any idea what might have happened with the dial, especially with "swiss made" being missing?
2. Any recommendations for a watchmaker that can service this in NJ/NY? I think I read somewhere in these forums that 321 movements can only be serviced in Bienne now so is it even possible to get independent servicing?
3. Would an independent watchmaker be able to replace the dial with the new ed white dial and correct chrono hand?
4. Seems frowned upon for vintage watches, but is it worth asking Omega to service this? Would they replace the dial with the new ed white dial or is that hoping for too much?
5. Logo on back of case nearly completely worn off.
6. Any thoughts on valuation? Guessing on the very low end, but would be nice to get a ballpark estimate.

Thanks in advance!

pics:

Edited: Jul 5, 2024

 

[Dan S]

It's pretty rough, but many old watches end up this way. At first glance, it looks like the dial has been repainted. If you can move the hands and post better photos, it would be helpful. If you can get a replacement dial, an independent watchmaker can certainly replace it. Omega might have some sort of service dial for it, but I don't know if it's the same dial as the one you are referring to, which may or may not fit. In any case, a period-correct dial would be more desirable.

 

[masteroftime]

I almost bought this one on ebay, but ultimately decided against it because of the condition. The dial is repainted and the hands are wrong and the case seemed really overpolished. It is going to be a heavy lift project wise, but could be made presentable with a service dial and hands.

Btw, If that subdial hand fell off on its own, you likely have grounds to return it.

 

[JwRosenthal]

I have no clue what you paid, but I have a headache just knowing what it would take to get this up to speed (pardon the pun) and you are still living with a repainted dial and overpolished case. If it had good bones that would be one thing, but this poor watch has been trashed.
If you can return it (and as previously stated- the hand popped off is grounds for “not as described”), I would just cut bait on this one and chalk it up to a very near miss hard learning experience. Then spend some time here learning what to look for and frequent the sales section. Even though you are new, you can PM any seller and start a conversation.

 

[codingcpa]

Thank you for the responses. I paid $3750 + tax and ship which came out to $4,009.71 total. It sounds like even that was paying too much for the condition the watch is in.

The chrono hour hand was already off when I received, seems to have happened in transit since it looked attached in the listing.

I've let the watch run for a few hours now and it seems to be keeping decent enough time. I also absolutely love the feel of the chrono start/stop (I own a 3861 and an 1861 to compare to and this 321 pusher really feels so much more satisfying and elegant to click). The reset pusher also works but requires a bit more force which I'm thinking would be made better after servicing.

So there are a couple pros to me keeping it - 321 movement and the shape of the case - I really really love the straight lug ed white case, even in this overpolished poor condition.

I had not even known about repainted dials being a thing sadly, and after a quick search of replacement ed white dials, it is way out of my budget.

My two options at this moment seems to be:
1. Try to return the watch for a refund since the chrono hand having fallen off seems to be valid reason.
2. Just send it to omega for servicing and get a service dial and service handset since the dial is already ruined anyways. This seems to be a fixed price under $1000 which I am willing to pay.

I am leaning towards option 2 just because I would love to own a 321 movement. Does anyone know how much Omega would charge for a replacement service dial? Also, I'm assuming they wouldn't replace the case during service, would that be a correct assumption?

Thanks so much

 

[NotJackson]

I understand the pull of wanting to own a Cal 321 Speedmaster, but if I were you I’d return this one. I recently dropped about $5k on a fairly presentable 145.012-67 … it’s not a showcase piece by any means, but all original and unpolished. They’re out there, and I think you could do better than what you’ve spent on this one plus the cost of replacing parts.

 

[Dan S]

I don't think that the fixed price for an Omega service includes things like replacement dials. In fact, I don't even know if that fixed price applies to something as old as this watch. You might want to contact the service center and see if you can get a straight answer, although they will probably just tell you to send it in for an evaluation.

 

[ndgal]

I don't wish to bum you out, but if you want my personal opinion, there are zero redeeming factors to this piece.
I don't see how even "fixing" or "restoring" this watch would make it semi-enjoyable to wear.
To me, having a calibre 321 (that you'll never see) under the hood, while the exterior looks like a wreck, isn't worth it.
Those $4,000 would be much better spent on a great quality 3570/3590, etc.

 

[codingcpa]

Thank you all for your replies. I have been swayed and have decided to open a return. The seller had a no return policy in the listing but I believe receiving the watch with the subdial hand fallen off should work in my favor with ebay's decision.

now that I've decided... crazy to think I was about to put another 1k+ into servicing this... thanks all.

 

[Speed2Sea]

After reading the thread I believe you made a very wise decision. Best of luck to you.

 

[JwRosenthal]

codingcpa

Thank you all for your replies. I have been swayed and have decided to open a return. The seller had a no return policy in the listing but I believe receiving the watch with the subdial hand fallen off should work in my favor with ebay's decision.

now that I've decided... crazy to think I was about to put another 1k+ into servicing this... thanks all.

Trust me, we have all felt that pang of “well, I have it and I really want to like it” but your initial response of dissapoinent will stick with your for the rest of your time with it if you chose to keep it- eventually resulting in your selling it for a loss and buying one that’s an honest original watch for the same money you had into a project watch.

 

[Spacefruit]

Lets consider the case for keeping it.

What we have to work with is a movement and a rough case.

We also have a DO90 bezel, BUT it is the thick font and I don't like it compared to thin fonts.

Prices for everything have come down, as have values for projects like this. So finding a dial might not be prohibitive. The case might put some off, but again for a price it is liveable.

Crown and pushers might be harder to find than you think.

For dials, you could use a distressed new service dial, or find a period service dial (which seem to be undervalued). An original Ed White dial might be found, and I would be happy with one with some issues, as it would fit the rest of the watch.

So we need:

A service: $600
A grotty EW dial: $1100
Crown: $400
Pushers: $400(?)
Hands need sorting: $300

So we have an Ed White for $6,800 with a DO90.

I dont know what other Ed White we find could at this level. The thing a lot of people are now thinking, do I want to spend nearly $7k on a rough Ed White - Or do I spend double and get a nice one, or spend that $7k on a less valuable reference.

I am not sure the case for keeping it is strong - unless you like a project.

This also brings an interesting angle. I am being offered Speedmasters now at a rate of about two a week. So far, I would not want to buy any at HALF the asking price.

If this watch was $2,000 many of us would think it a fun project, no?

 

[Davidt]

I agree this isn’t a watch you should have bought but if these are the sellers pictures the condition of the wqtxh is clear to see and although the seller may have to accept a return I think it’s slightly unfair on the seller.

These kind of questions and research should really be done before bidding, not after.

 

[JwRosenthal]

Spacefruit

Lets consider the case for keeping it.

What we have to work with is a movement and a rough case.

We also have a DO90 bezel, BUT it is the thick font and I don't like it compared to thin fonts.

Prices for everything have come down, as have values for projects like this. So finding a dial might not be prohibitive. The case might put some off, but again for a price it is liveable.

Crown and pushers might be harder to find than you think.

For dials, you could use a distressed new service dial, or find a period service dial (which seem to be undervalued). An original Ed White dial might be found, and I would be happy with one with some issues, as it would fit the rest of the watch.

So we need:

A service: $600
A grotty EW dial: $1100
Crown: $400
Pushers: $400(?)
Hands need sorting: $300

So we have an Ed White for $6,800 with a DO90.

I dont know what other Ed White we find could at this level. The thing a lot of people are now thinking, do I want to spend nearly $7k on a rough Ed White - Or do I spend double and get a nice one, or spend that $7k on a less valuable reference.

I am not sure the case for keeping it is strong - unless you like a project.

This also brings an interesting angle. I am being offered Speedmasters now at a rate of about two a week. So far, I would not want to buy any at HALF the asking price.

If this watch was $2,000 many of us would think it a fun project, no?

This situation is a good exercise for us all as well as a cautionary tale. For someone who has the resources in place (like you), this could be a project that yields a decent watch (you could refinish the case and find a better back which wouldn’t be the worst thing) and is incredibly gratifying- bringing a sad watch back from the dead.

But to someone with little to no experience with these watches, this could end up becoming a money pit, taking years to acquire the correct parts (I have a bin of parts that were supposed to be the “correct” parts for project watches I had) and resulting in a watch that symbolizes failure and frustration (I have shelves of partially repaired hi-fi gear that symbolize this).
It comes down to how much work (and money) can the OP handle on a project watch. There is no right or wrong answer, just a matter of interest and fortitude.

 

[masteroftime]

Spacefruit

Lets consider the case for keeping it.

What we have to work with is a movement and a rough case.

We also have a DO90 bezel, BUT it is the thick font and I don't like it compared to thin fonts.

Prices for everything have come down, as have values for projects like this. So finding a dial might not be prohibitive. The case might put some off, but again for a price it is liveable.

Crown and pushers might be harder to find than you think.

For dials, you could use a distressed new service dial, or find a period service dial (which seem to be undervalued). An original Ed White dial might be found, and I would be happy with one with some issues, as it would fit the rest of the watch.

So we need:

A service: $600
A grotty EW dial: $1100
Crown: $400
Pushers: $400(?)
Hands need sorting: $300

So we have an Ed White for $6,800 with a DO90.

I dont know what other Ed White we find could at this level. The thing a lot of people are now thinking, do I want to spend nearly $7k on a rough Ed White - Or do I spend double and get a nice one, or spend that $7k on a less valuable reference.

I am not sure the case for keeping it is strong - unless you like a project.

This also brings an interesting angle. I am being offered Speedmasters now at a rate of about two a week. So far, I would not want to buy any at HALF the asking price.

If this watch was $2,000 many of us would think it a fun project, no?

I was interested in it for this exact reason, but the seller wanted much more. That being said, there have been plenty of watches selling for incredible deals.

Earlier this year, I saw this example sell on eBay:



The seller bought it in a local auction in the US in estate / “barn find” condition and posted it on FB. He polished the crystal and relisted it on ebay at an auction. I can’t remember the exact sale price but it was something like 7.9k or 8.5k ish. At these sorts of prices for a really nice example, the projects start to make less sense.

 

[stevee1999]

This is really an interesting thread. Especially trying to do the cost trade to determine if it is better to start with a better (more costly) example vs. something that may be cheaper and has problems in the hopes it can be brought up to higher standards with some effort and additional investment.

I've been into vintage automobiles for many years and the situation is similar. One thing I have learned over the years that it is always more cost effective to buy the best example you can afford. Searching for rare parts does not always work out and the cost and frustration of repair can be high. And you still may not be happy with the end result.

 

[JwRosenthal]

stevee1999

This is really an interesting thread. Especially trying to do the cost trade to determine if it is better to start with a better (more costly) example vs. something that may be cheaper and has problems in the hopes it can be brought up to higher standards with some effort and additional investment.

I've been into vintage automobiles for many years and the situation is similar. One thing I have learned over the years that it is always more cost effective to buy the best example you can afford. Searching for rare parts does not always work out and the cost and frustration of repair can be high. And you still may not be happy with the end result.

I was going to use the automotive example- learned this lesson years ago sinking $15k into a project car only to sell it for the $4.5k 5 years later. Ended up buying a no excuses turnkey for top of the market and never looked back.

 

[stevee1999]

JwRosenthal

I was going to use the automotive example- learned this lesson years ago sinking $15k into a project car only to sell it for the $4.5k 5 years later. Ended up buying a no excuses turnkey for top of the market and never looked back.

You are not alone my friend.

 

[drose224]

Good analogy

 

[SOG53]

This one seems like a very iffy proposition for those with knowledge and resources, but a real no-go for a noobie