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Judging vintage black dials

WhatYourWatchSay
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As a rule I stay away from vintage watches with black dials because I'm always concerned about whether or not they have been refinished.

Is it safe to say that if the black dial is bright and shiny while the hands and hour markers show some age that the dial has been refinished?
 
SkunkPrince
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That is an interesting question. Without knowing the history of the watch, that might well be true. It might be a service dial as well, which means a dial from the manufacturer but not one that was originally in the watch, in other words, changed at service.

Most of us try to address a watch as a whole, and what you like matters as well.

But in general, I think your question can be answered "more likely than not."
 
Vitezi
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WhatYourWatchSay WhatYourWatchSay
Is it safe to say that if the black dial is bright and shiny while the hands and hour markers show some age that the dial has been refinished?

There are plenty of glossy black dials that have survived in great shape from as far back as the 1950s while the hands have tarnished a bit. I think a better course of study is to examine the printing on a black dial, especially the fonts and minute markers. If you have a loupe, gilt print on a black dial tends to be debossed while pad print is embossed.

These are all examples of watches from the 1950s (from left to right): 1957 Sonorous alarm; 1956 Futura; 1952 "cioccolatone";1955 Militar; 1955 automatic. The last two are still so glossy I can see my reflection.
20210818_181348.jpg
 
Tony C.
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Not necessarily, as mentioned. The two salient variables are how the watch has been used/stored, and the quality of the finishing lacquer that was originally applied. While most lacquers did degrade over the decades, some were more stable, and helped to preserve dials well.
 
WhatYourWatchSay
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Good replies here, thank you all.

Looking at a vintage skin diver I picked up, it originally had a black dial and is still smooth and glossy today. But when i see a desirable watch with a shiny black dial I always ere on the side of caution and think refinished. I'm going to be looking at a Longines today and I suspect a new dial. I guess I'll have to look at everything as a whole and go from there.

Edited to add: There was an older guy in the city I live in who used to, as a rule, send every watch he bought to have the dial refinished black. He did this to so many watches over the years that I've actually encountered collectors who have them and believe the dial is original, including several I sold the guy which did not have black dials. I think that has coloured my opinion on black dials 🙄
 
Dgercp
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Your view may be jaded from the experience with the "older guy". I suspect the vast majority of vintage black dial watches are original. With experience, you can usually tell and it is not always based on shininess of the dial.
 
WhatYourWatchSay
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Dgercp Dgercp
Your view may be jaded from the experience with the "older guy".

Quite likely. Anytime I see aged hands and markers and a glossy dial and new looking minute markers my suspicion goes up.
 
LesXL
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cristos71 cristos71
Quick Dibs on the Sonorous please! 😀
I like your thinking!
.
.
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Quick dibs on the 1955 Automatic 😀
 
DaveK
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Under a loupe this looked good to me, so I bought it. I got nervous when the pros on the Bulova forum we’re leaning towards redial, but happily they agreed it was a previously undocumented variant.

C6B0933C-337B-40B3-9749-9A635D2CC6C2.jpeg
 
padders
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Dgercp Dgercp
Your view may be jaded from the experience with the "older guy". I suspect the vast majority of vintage black dial watches are original. With experience, you can usually tell and it is not always based on shininess of the dial.
A quick look at eBay suggests that there are plenty that aren’t original so I wouldn’t personally agree that the vast majority are straight. The majority maybe but the chances of encountering a redial are pretty high so I wouldn’t discount the need to be on your guard. The noob threads here asking about their black dial uncles watch seem to be around 50:50 on original or redial so again I think they are more prevalent than you think.
Edited:
 
Jacopoluisotti
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there could be a possibility that if the dial is crisp but not the handset, the dial has been changed with a non damaged one leaving the hand set on the watch
 
WhatYourWatchSay
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DaveK DaveK
Under a loupe this looked good to me, so I bought it. I got nervous when the pros on the Bulova forum we’re leaning towards redial, but happily they agreed it was a previously undocumented variant.

Beautiful looking watch @DaveK 👍

Two years ago I passed up a Bulova Right Angle because it had a black dial that looked too good to be true. Got home looked through my guides and sales books and sure enough black dial Right Angles did exist. Called the place about the watch and it was gone. Seller was asking $10. I still kick myself for passing it up, at a sawbuck it was a great deal redial or not.
 
DaveK
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WhatYourWatchSay WhatYourWatchSay
Beautiful looking watch @DaveK 👍

Two years ago I passed up a Bulova Right Angle because it had a black dial that looked too good to be true. Got home looked through my guides and sales books and sure enough black dial Right Angles did exist. Called the place about the watch and it was gone. Seller was asking $10. I still kick myself for passing it up, at a sawbuck it was a great deal redial or not.

I should add, I had some great help from folks here too. I went home to “think about it” but luckily it was still there when I went back.
 
STANDY
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Not always the case, plenty of nice black dials around…..

6C2B6136-9802-40C8-B1DB-D66C39FD1593.jpeg 343BB822-5F10-4F8D-9772-E76E7C800A48.jpeg

And
A Lemania that is well know around here…..😉
3F22AE25-234B-4FC7-B81C-7605A8C5B9EA.jpeg 4675393B-AA13-4F17-ADC5-62A25DB9EB8F.jpeg 2D16DA21-5A26-4703-9BAA-A7D5DA894A1C.jpeg F1EC18F0-C428-4727-AA21-38E07FB9FF76.jpeg
 
wagudc
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STANDY STANDY
Not always the case, plenty of nice black dials around…..
A Lemania that is well know around here…..😉
3F22AE25-234B-4FC7-B81C-7605A8C5B9EA.jpeg 4675393B-AA13-4F17-ADC5-62A25DB9EB8F.jpeg 2D16DA21-5A26-4703-9BAA-A7D5DA894A1C.jpeg F1EC18F0-C428-4727-AA21-38E07FB9FF76.jpeg

The Lemania 🥰
 
Dgercp
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padders padders
A quick look at eBay suggests that there are plenty that aren’t original so I wouldn’t personally agree that the vast majority are straight. The majority maybe but the chances of encountering a redial are pretty high so I wouldn’t discount the need to be on your guard. The noob threads here asking about their black dial uncles watch seem to be around 50:50 on original or redial so again I think they are more prevalent than you think.

Maybe just majority. But judging redail rate based on ebay is like judging heroin use based on a prison population.
 
padders
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Dgercp Dgercp
Maybe just majority. But judging redail rate based on ebay is like judging heroin use based on a prison population.
How would you prefer we judge it?
 
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