issue with UG for sale here

TheGreekPhysique · Apr 12, 2022

cvalue13
If a seller doesn’t believe the watch has been serviced in decades, is it a requirement or dishonest if they fail to specify that in the copy of their sale posting?

Service history unknown.

cvalue13
If a seller believes hands are service replacements, is it a requirement or dishonest if they fail to specify that in the copy of their sale posting?

https://omegaforums.net/threads/late-60s-omega-350.144457/

^ My listing. I specifically state I am unsure if the crown has been replaced and if the hands are correct for this reference as I don't know the reference number and know little about the specific reference. I post it here not to promote my own listing but as an example of what kind of honesty I would appreciate from fellow members on this forum.

cvalue13
If a seller believes the case has been polished to a butter-turd, is it a requirement or dishonest if they fail to specify that in the copy of their sale posting?

Case has been polished in the past. <- just as an example. I get what you are saying though. It can become a slippery slope with how much is ADEQUATE disclosure. I think good rule of thumb as everyone should be as honest as they can.

Zapatta · Apr 12, 2022

Joe_A
Have I missed the part where someone explained how one can recognize that the dial is a redial even while flying overhead in a plane?

I'm no expert by any means but difference between fonts, position and thickness of a print between these two watches is pretty obvious. "UNIVERSAL" looks like its written with sharpie.

cvalue13 · Apr 12, 2022

TheGreekPhysique
Service

obviously I understand these can be addressed

but they’re not all, always addressed - and there are no forum rules that they must be addressed … so:

Dan S
We have one thread on one issue about one watch, I don't see a need for extrapolation to other issues, or speculation about a slippery slope. If we start to see a proliferation of improper threads, we can address that at that time.

While I get why you’re reduce my post down to a “slippery slope” argument, let me reframe it more clearly:

Exactly what is the principle we’re here condoning, in this thread that did here occur?

And because it appears to need clarifying: I’m not critiquing so much as genuinely curious how folks see this principle that’s being expressed and even cheered on?

Is it: anytime a knowledgeable member feels a sales post doesn’t address a topic they’d like covered, then they should first and foremost create a separate thread to ask the question or inject the information as they view it, so long as they’re careful to not indict the sales post in dishonesty?

this isn’t a thread about something that was posted and incorrect, or known to be deceptive: but instead that wasn’t addressed at all.

I’m not certain of the informal rule here being championed by some and questioned by others, but it seems as worth discussing as what shoes we’re wearing today…

Dan S · Apr 12, 2022

Ben doesn't need you to condone his thread. He knows as much about UG as anyone on OF IMO. He started a thread to discuss a watch. We do this all the time for watches listed here, there, and everywhere.

cvalue13 · Apr 12, 2022

Dan S
Ben doesn't need you to condone his thread.

never said any such thing

Dan S
He started a thread to discuss a watch. We do this all the time for watches listed here, there, and everywhere.

Ive seen and participated in plenty of threads discussing sales posts on other platforms.

I’ve seen threads here discussing seemingly dishonest or clearly inaccurate assertions made in sales posts on this forum.

I’m not sure that I’ve seen threads just as Ben’s, but I’ll reiterate:

cvalue13
I personally have no problem with the OPs post, which I think was very carefully crafted to avoid several potential pitfalls.

Meanwhile, on a forum that has no requirement to cover certain topics in sales posts, but many appear interested in filling in perceived blanks, I remain interested in hearing folks’ more genuine takes

TexOmega · Apr 12, 2022

I make a motion that we have some postings with kitty cats......and, will someone open a window?

Joe_A · Apr 12, 2022

Zapatta
I'm no expert by any means but difference between fonts, position and thickness of a print between these two watches is pretty obvious. "UNIVERSAL" looks like its written with sharpie.

Thanks.

I confess that I somehow mixed the photo of the reference with an original dial with the item for sale. My bad. I see the signs clearly now. 😉

CaptainWinsor · Apr 12, 2022

I don’t go anywhere near UG as for some reason they seem to be the most problematic but I commend @bgrisso for starting this thread as it helps many of us recognize what to look for when online. If the watch in question was $100 it wouldn’t matter much but at the asking price, the buyer needs to be aware of everything.

sleepyastronaut · Apr 12, 2022

iamvr
You‘re attacking the OP for a legit thread while making a claim that undisclosed redials change hands here everyday. If your expertise goes that far to spot all these redials I wish you‘d take @bgrisso ‘s approach and share your knowledge with everyone rather than keeping it for yourself.

I'm not publicly calling out by name a well-respected, long-standing member for his expert redialing skills.

I'm happy to share my knowledge with anyone who PM's me about it.

bgrisso · Apr 12, 2022

It's interesting this has touched such a nerve. Unexpected. I wish my posts about other UG watches got this much action.

In some sense it's very simple, I saw an obvious redial that was not stated, seller probably not aware, I didn't want someone to get burned, I asked the mods what to do, and followed their suggestion. End of story.

As others have said, watches for sale are dissected here every day in often brutal fashion, and sometimes with a lot of conjecture and potentially even misinformation. But if the watch is question is posted for sale on this website, then it can't be discussed? Doesn't really make any sense does it. What are we, the editorial team and the sales team on the dink? No, we are the opposite. No one has any vested interest or conflict of interest on any level, from the people that run the site, to the rest of us.

So perhaps it comes down to courtesy and etiquette. Maybe I should have emailed the seller, again I was just following mods suggestion. The seller is probably under the impression the dial is original, because the last seller said as much, and so on. A random person emails them otherwise, what are they to make of it, I could be completely wrong. Perhaps a thread, with some others in agreement, makes the point more effectively.

I get the questions about where does this stop. There are so many levels of potential issues, from case polishing to lume to mix and match parts to who knows what. I'm sure many of us would not be happy with a band of rabid fact checkers hounding their every sales post, nitpicking the details. On the other hand, a redial is in a different class. Perhaps it's best not to get lost in the weeds.

I've been burned badly on vintage watches and lost a lot of money. There's been some hard lessons. It's rampant in this hobby and industry. I hope OF can be a bit of a safer haven.

cvalue13 · Apr 12, 2022

bgrisso
On the other hand, a redial is in a different class.

I’d been wondering if you or others might feel redials are a particular/special situation, and it’s compelling to hear it out-loud (and no surprise that there might also be a UG-specific sensitivity to redials 😗)

all-together, I appreciate this most recent and your original post 👍

Given the thoughtfulness of your most recent post, perhaps you’ll tolerate one related thought: you titled this thread “issue with UG for sale here”

that phrasing, particularly the word “issue,” may have unintentionally set a tone in some reader’s mind that subsequently caused a bit of blindness to the remaining careful content of your post.

not that I have any better idea for the phrasing of your thread topic

Engee · Apr 12, 2022

bgrisso
I'm sure many of us would not be happy with a band of rabid fact checkers hounding their every sales post, nitpicking the details.

I wouldn’t mind. Indeed, if I were to sell a watch here, as a private seller and I had even the slightest worry about anything, I think I would start a post about the watch asking for comments about it. If there was any disagreement I would note that in my listing, and probably link the listing to the discussion.

One thing is for sure, I would not want to list something on this forum that was wrong whether or not I was aware of the problem(s). I would find that very embarrassing.

pdxleaf · Apr 13, 2022

People are probably familiar with BAT. BAT is a vehicle auction site. The one aspect that sets them apart is that comments within the ad are not only allowed but encouraged.

Of course you get the occasional smart ass but for the most part it engenders trust, as there is a wealth of community wisdom. If you sell on BAT, you better be straight up. It doesn't mean you need to be an expert or have only a perfect vehicle. Just be open and engaged. I have sold two vehicles on it and think it a positive experience. Buyers tend to trust BAT as they like the community vetting. That also helps the seller.

The rules on the OF are fine. The OP followed the mods rules and suggestions. Bottom line, that's what matters IMHO.. PM's are nice and most people respond well, although not always. But those aren't the rules.

Back to BAT example. Should the forum decide to allow comments in an ad, it would not be terrible. If someone gets out of line and starts badgering or trolling, there are others who will call them on it. Based on the members here, I would expect any comments about condition would be respectful and genuine.

I also have a sense that any ad on OF has been community vetted, at least based on likes. Perhaps it would be wiser to assume the worst unless otherwise stated, but I don't. I prefer to assume good intentions on the part of the seller. It doesn't mean blind trust. Do your own due diligence. Still, I'd like to believe the OF sales section is the last bastion of trust and honesty. Perhaps naive, but if OF can't be trusted, what is left?

Davidt · Apr 13, 2022

cvalue13
Meanwhile, on a forum that has no requirement to cover certain topics in sales posts, but many appear interested in filling in perceived blanks, I remain interested in hearing folks’ more genuine takes

I don’t see how there can be a requirement to cover various topics in a sales post as some private sellers may be ignorant to some issues.

However, on a somewhat self policing platform such as OF I expect known issues to be covered. E.g. service history, dial condition/redial, sharpness/softness of case, correctness of hands/crown/bezel etc.
I assume that’s why watches from certain experienced members sell quickly or at a higher price - they give confidence to inexperienced buyers that the watch is correct or issues are highlighted.

If such issues are not highlighted through a sellers lack of knowledge or desire to be economical with the truth, I see absolutely no issue with a thread to discuss the issues.

bardamu · Apr 19, 2022

Larry S
...it was necessary because the seller wasn’t backing down....

...which is the same is happening here, if I'm not wrong

stonestone · Apr 19, 2022

The possibility that a thread like this might be published for a watch where something major is off (and I would count an undisclosed redial in that category) is one reason I would consider OF a more reliable forum for buying watches than eBay.

That said, I still assume caveat emptor applies. There's a very nice vintage watch (I'll leave out the details) I have noticed for sale on OF which in most respects looks excellent, but I'm fairly sure the hands are relumed, and there is no mention of this in the ad copy. I don't consider that a major offence, however, and I wouldn't call out the seller on this. But I would definitely ask him about it if I wanted to consider making an offer.

watchyouwant · Apr 19, 2022

In the past I used PM to contact sellers if I'm uncomfortable with a description. Quite a few did not know and were grateful for the observation.

Larry S · Apr 19, 2022

watchyouwant
In the past I used PM to contact sellers if I'm uncomfortable with a description. Quite a few did not know and were grateful for the observation.

I’ve done the same and had similar responses. I’ve even had a prominent dealer thank me for pointing out a refinished UG dial they had missed. Then unfortunately you have the seller that tells you to F off. Then its time to make a thread.

southtexas · Apr 21, 2022

Larry S
I’ve done the same and had similar responses. I’ve even had a prominent dealer thank me for pointing out a refinished UG dial they had missed. Then unfortunately you have the seller that tells you to F off. Then its time to make a thread.

This makes sense. But what to do in the event the seller is as qualified to make the authenticity determination as the person who is questioning his judgment, considering the watch is actually in the hands of the qualified seller? Asking for a friend 😉

Larry S · Apr 21, 2022

southtexas
This makes sense. But what to do in the event the seller is as qualified to make the authenticity determination as the person who is questioning his judgment, considering the watch is actually in the hands of the qualified seller? Asking for a friend 😉

Put it out on the appropriate forum for discussion. As discussed fair game.

issue with UG for sale here

TheGreekPhysique

Zapatta

cvalue13

Dan S

cvalue13

TexOmega

Joe_A

CaptainWinsor

sleepyastronaut

bgrisso

cvalue13

Engee

pdxleaf

Davidt

bardamu

stonestone

watchyouwant

Larry S

southtexas

Larry S

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