Is this Transitional worth €12,000?

blubarb · Sep 10, 2016

Hi Kwijibo

Thank you for your comment. The best part of OF is that our opinions are tolerated as long as we are gentlemanly and not abusive; but with all due respect, you are sailing close to the wind with your tone. I am putting it down to frustration...

Well having said that...let me say this...

1. My comment was NOT an attack on you and especially questioning your integrity, why would I do that, I don't know you. I can only go by what you posted and that seemed quite measured and controlled though I could sense a frustration. I really don't know how you got an abusive attack on your honesty based on my words or tone - please supply some supporting evidence so I can duly assess.
2. I don't care how much you ask for your speedy or your friend's speedy just as you don't care how much I offer my watches for, but there is a point where the sale price is so ambitious that it becomes contentious and boarders on being silly especially if it is based on an idea that one day they could be worth that. You say in a previous post: "...remeber a few years ago people screaming at 3000 euros speedies." that maybe the case in the future but it is not right now - I (and note I say I) don't sell based on the premise that one day my asking price will seem cheap - so I am not sure of your argument here or if that's even a sound reasoning for valuing any item for sale - not even stocks or gold is sold on that basis - at least I don't think so.
3. Yes you are right, prices are fairly decided in an open market - your friend is free to take it to eBay or some such auction site but why would he expect to get more than current value in that market either, especially as, and as you state elsewhere he wants to sell quickly? Of course ask what he likes, but my point is not about the asking price per se, but about selling for friends as it bypasses the 200 rule and though technically permissible opens up various problems - but that is your issue, your friend's issue and a potential buyer (which is all of us theoretically) and so on that basis alone we can formulate an opinion even if it angers and frustrates you or me.
4. In regards to distance, surely you do distance yourself the moment you say it is for your friend - that is not a bad thing as it puts us on notice that we are moving away from a forum sale, maybe I am wrong on that but it's just a view. You can collect the funds, do whatever you like as that is between yourself, your friend and the potential buyer, but my point is, and again openly, how does the buyer make an assessment of the seller's credibility? They can't they can only assess you and your history (which in your case is rightly unchallenged). I have absolutely no reason to doubt you or your integrity but what if something does go wrong? Will you be responsible for resolving issues or is the buyer out on his own? Most of us, you and I included, operate within the forum based on our positive and ongoing reputations - your friend is known to you but is an unknown quantity to an OF member who might want to use that reputation as a safe-guard (which theoretically is all of us) hence my objection to selling for friends. How does selling for friends differ (in real terms) from buying from a zero poster?
5. Personally I found your tone was out of context to the intent of my point(s), but I understand why. Be assured there was NO intent at an attack on you or your credibility.
6. As to your sentence: "As for your opinion on my intention of "f... someone" or "f... all" on this forum" how did you get to that other than from a vague reference to the possible intention of some seller - including myself if you read carefully. I can sense the frustration you have and I felt it in a few of your previous responses hence why I understated my views and (so I thought) structured my response, but to be met with a short diatribe from you because you are frustrated seems a little unwarranted but I get it.

I am sure we can see beyond this differing point of view and who knows maybe one day you and I might want to complete a transaction together and if that were the case I would be more than happy to do so.

Kwijibo · Sep 10, 2016

Well you see

My "pill joke" was just a reference to cooling down things and my going to bed. Yours was clearly refering so someone trying to extort someone else. Here is the difference. If some sellers want to scam someone it's none of my business. I've always been a clean seller here so refering to that is clumsy.
What if something goes wrong you mention? I said somewhere return and refund accepted as long as the watch is intact. Of course it's only my words (as in any listing on the sales section). The fact is that no buyer on the forum have returned a watch that he bought from me yet. I suppose the reason is that I sell correct watches. So far I saw noone on the forum complaining about my behaviour as a seller or waving a red flag about me like "don't buy from Kwijibo, total scammer!"
You don't know me as you say. I don't know you neither. So I avoid having an opinion on who you are. As you say, may be some day we will sell/buy a watch to/from each other.
I hope all that is just a misunderstanding.

have a good day.

blubarb · Sep 10, 2016

Here's the difference to me:
1. At no point did I refer to extortion, that is just silly.
2. You say "If some sellers want to scam someone it's none of my business." well, it is to me - I don't want to see anyone scammed. Maybe I have had a bone shift in the head but I feel invested enough in this forum to care about potential scammers or problems, but not to an obsessive level - at least I hope not - I reserve that for misaligned bezels and spots on dials 😉
2. This has nothing to do with you as a seller, you are not selling the watch, so therefore yes it is a misunderstanding - you are thinking you are the seller where in fact you are not. And that is my point, and let me state it clearly: I am not in favour of members selling for friends even though it is permissible, but that is just my point of view - I think it is fraught with potential problems at a very fundamental level, maybe not on this sale or the next but it will happen and someone will be in a world of shite.However, you're grown up people and who am I to tell another how to conduct their business. Just to expand, why bother having a 200 post rule if it can be bypassed - of course, and as I said earlier, it's to your credit you mentioned it was for a friend - 99% of us would do exactly that - but I can't say definitively 100% will be as up front as you were, but you somehow missed that positive tip of the hat towards you.
3. I have made no judgement about you and if you believe I have then,yes, another misunderstanding,

And to get back on track, and in reply to the original question put by Spacefruit, I would say that there has been no demonstration to me at least that has swayed me towards thinking, even in a small part, that that this Speedy is exceptional and should hold an asking price even in this market of anywhere near USD13.500 aside of what I think it may or may not be worth in the future decades. Personally I think Spacefruit summed it up on page one:

"I have no doubt there is a transitional out there that someone would pay $12,000 for. I would expect it to be in close to unworn condition, with a box and papers, and a top DO90 bezel.

This particular watch has no provenance, and suspect looking hands. It also, to me, has dial plots that look very slightly suspect. They are very yellow, thick and creamy. I have not seen this before, and it may be fine. It is just that as the hands look a little dodgy, I start to worry about the dial.

I think this watch has been "prepared" and some time.

I don't expect these worries when I consider paying top dollar for a watch."

mes pensées exactement

Traveler · Sep 10, 2016

No dog in this fight but ...

1. I think the lume plots are not 'prepared' but nice and original - the well documented hands issues I take as given as replacements, but have no specific bearing on the plots.
2. 100% agree on the points made on the 'for friends' rule - it's fraught with potential problems, and I would never buy (knowingly) on that basis. This has bothered me in the past FWIW.
3. I think the above mistunderstsnding was just piqued by the 'fukitol' pill - I don't think it was meant as a personal attack - humor just doesn't translate well all the time across nationalities and through the inter webs....

Kwijibo · Sep 10, 2016

blubarb
Here's the difference to me:
1. At no point did I refer to extortion, that is just silly.
2. You say "If some sellers want to scam someone it's none of my business." well, it is to me - I don't want to see anyone scammed. Maybe I have had a bone shift in the head but I feel invested enough in this forum to care about potential scammers or problems, but not to an obsessive level - at least I hope not - I reserve that for misaligned bezels and spots on dials 😉
2. This has nothing to do with you as a seller, you are not selling the watch, so therefore yes it is a misunderstanding - you are thinking you are the seller where in fact you are not. And that is my point, and let me state it clearly: I am not in favour of members selling for friends even though it is permissible, but that is just my point of view - I think it is fraught with potential problems at a very fundamental level, maybe not on this sale or the next but it will happen and someone will be in a world of shite.However, you're grown up people and who am I to tell another how to conduct their business. Just to expand, why bother having a 200 post rule if it can be bypassed - of course, and as I said earlier, it's to your credit you mentioned it was for a friend - 99% of us would do exactly that - but I can't say definitively 100% will be as up front as you were, but you somehow missed that positive tip of the hat towards you.
3. I have made no judgement about you and if you believe I have then,yes, another misunderstanding,

And to get back on track, and in reply to the original question put by Spacefruit, I would say that there has been no demonstration to me at least that has swayed me towards thinking, even in a small part, that that this Speedy is exceptional and should hold an asking price even in this market of anywhere near USD13.500 aside of what I think it may or may not be worth in the future decades. Personally I think Spacefruit summed it up on page one:

"I have no doubt there is a transitional out there that someone would pay $12,000 for. I would expect it to be in close to unworn condition, with a box and papers, and a top DO90 bezel.

This particular watch has no provenance, and suspect looking hands. It also, to me, has dial plots that look very slightly suspect. They are very yellow, thick and creamy. I have not seen this before, and it may be fine. It is just that as the hands look a little dodgy, I start to worry about the dial.

I think this watch has been "prepared" and some time.

I don't expect these worries when I consider paying top dollar for a watch."

mes pensées exactement

1/ I meant if someone is a scammer, we are all concerned, but I, am not. I think you undesrtood that.
2/ I'm in fact the seller but for a friend. That, actually, seems to make problems. Next time I will say I'm the seller. That will be more simple.
3/ I hope you lmake no judgement on my honnesty, and so will I about you
4/ for the rest

I pontetially tend to think the chrono hand was changed and glows a bit too much but can not be considered as an enormous problem (just my opinion)
Yes the plots are thick and creamy, I would say still greenish and luminous for a small period after exposition to hard light. What can I say about that. I think not many people here have seen a watch kept in a drawer for 30 years or so (some will retort, the uncle story...)
For the provenance, it is second hand. I personnaly know where it comes from.
My friend comes at home today or tommorow and will makes some pics of the naked dial as it seems to be some kind of mystery to many of you.

cheers

Kwijibo · Sep 10, 2016

Traveler
No dog in this fight but ...

1. I think the lume plots are not 'prepared' but nice and original - the well documented hands issues I take as given as replacements, but have no specific bearing on the plots.
2. 100% agree on the points made on the 'for friends' rule - it's fraught with potential problems, and I would never buy (knowingly) on that basis. This has bothered me in the past FWIW.
3. I think the above mistunderstsnding was just piqued by the 'fukitol' pill - I don't think it was meant as a personal attack - humor just doesn't translate well all the time across nationalities and through the inter webs....

hi,

I am probably going to change my ad and put it as a personnal sale. That will bring less suspicion. I'll make a less 'wow" listing.
1/ I am 99% sure the plots are original and rare, hence the price.
2/ As I said several times, I think the chrono hand is right, but not original. other hands are
3/ totally agree with you. As someon underlined it's sometimes hard to write in english and be fully understood as a french native speaker. beside that I appreciate talking with people all over the world.

as for what spacefruit said concerning the price. How much would you all be ready to pay for a transitional that would really be unworn, NOS, out of chear miracle. Just a question, not directly concerning the one I sell.
As for mine, I consider it as a A+ watch. Just my opinion.

blubarb · Sep 10, 2016

A "perfect" transitional with B & Ps in collector condition and basically NOS - maybe USD 9.5 to 11,000 - don't know really as I doubt it will happen anytime soon, if ever.

wsfarrell · Sep 10, 2016

One of the good things about a thread like this (maybe the ONLY good thing about a thread like this) is that it brings out members' true colors, for better and worse.

Spacefruit · Sep 10, 2016

There are comparables floating about. I find it interesting to see them.

Now all of these have issues, but so does the OP watch. All are on ebay, so you could find them if you need to. All would incur a sales fee that would not be incurred on this forum.

Interestingly the first has yellow plots too.

Unsold so far at $7750:

Another unsold as yet for $6350

This one with a terrible dial super optimistic (but unsold at) $6600:

72c · Sep 10, 2016

On a sidenote even more unsettling transitional sales threads exist than OP's if you rewind a couple of years. Unsettling only because with the benefit of hindsight they now look like such deals 😲

For example this beauty from 2013 priced at $2599, and even then the seller even had to reduce it to get a sale.

https://omegaforums.net/threads/has...ful-condition-join-the-dot-over-90-club.7619/

It's hard to think of another asset that's moved as much in price in a few short years (apart from effectively all aircooled 911s, but that's for another forum). In that context, OPs pal's pricing is a symptom of those rapid gains, even if he may have jumped the gun somewhat.

t_swiss_t · Sep 10, 2016

In all honesty this is one of those threads that makes me glad to have OF - it's much much different than the rest of the craziness and hyperbole we see on the internet. @Kwijibo puts up a FS ad, @Spacefruit thinks it would make a legitimately good discussion and education about the state of vintage omegas (the core of what this forum is), and viola, we have a 6 page roundtable on the merits and demerits of a watch. Despite some throwing around of 'disrespectful' and such, I think it has been quite the opposite - a serious but informed discussion has been had and we've ended up more informed than when we started. I don't think there has been much OF discussion about OF FS ads but why not, we discuss everything else that comes up FS and I do not think that the FS section here is a privileged beyond that discussion. I think including the OP of the FS in the discussion from the start (through a heads up PM or something of the sort) would be apropos but each to their own and I obviously don't know if that was done here or not.

OF posts aren't the hateful comments section of a youtube video with racial slurs and ad hominem attacks but just good dialogue. I feel like much of the perceived offense taken at a comment here or there is often due to the lack of emotion and nuance within written/read text vis a vis speech (unless you count yourself amongst Joyce or Yeats and can pull that kind of thing off).

All in all, keep up the good work and respectability, ladies and gentlemen.

Kwijibo · Sep 10, 2016

Spacefruit
There are comparables floating about. I find it interesting to see them.

Now all of these have issues, but so does the OP watch. All are on ebay, so you could find them if you need to. All would incur a sales fee that would not be incurred on this forum.

Interestingly the first has yellow plots too.

Unsold so far at $7750:

Another unsold as yet for $6350

This one with a terrible dial super optimistic (but unsold at) $6600:

my thoughts :
1st one : big bump one the bezel and faded (not ghost). Bracelet is legit? looks like a 1171 but not sure
2nd : poor general condition : plots, dial in general, bezel, stains on the hands if I see well
3d one : nice but medium condition bezel, no lume on the chrono hand, I would call dial generally but not exceptionnal.
it's jut a (bit hard?) judgement. I allow myself to be hard as people don't seem to be especially indulging with me 😗
Generally I prefer my 71, whaot do you think of the general condition?

Kwijibo · Sep 10, 2016

72c
On a sidenote even more unsettling transitional sales threads exist than OP's if you rewind a couple of years. Unsettling only because with the benefit of hindsight they now look like such deals 😲

For example this beauty from 2013 priced at $2599, and even then the seller even had to reduce it to get a sale.

https://omegaforums.net/threads/has...ful-condition-join-the-dot-over-90-club.7619/

It's hard to think of another asset that's moved as much in price in a few short years (apart from effectively all aircooled 911s, but that's for another forum). In that context, OPs pal's pricing is a symptom of those rapid gains, even if he may have jumped the gun somewhat.

yep...2013 was 2013. You can say I'm responsible for inflation on speedies. I admit this one is very very nice. Hands don't look original. Were they?

Kwijibo · Sep 10, 2016

ahantel
In all honesty this is one of those threads that makes me glad to have OF - it's much much different than the rest of the craziness and hyperbole we see on the internet. @Kwijibo puts up a FS ad, @Spacefruit thinks it would make a legitimately good discussion and education about the state of vintage omegas (the core of what this forum is), and viola, we have a 6 page roundtable on the merits and demerits of a watch. Despite some throwing around of 'disrespectful' and such, I think it has been quite the opposite - a serious but informed discussion has been had and we've ended up more informed than when we started. I don't think there has been much OF discussion about OF FS ads but why not, we discuss everything else that comes up FS and I do not think that the FS section here is a privileged beyond that discussion. I think including the OP of the FS in the discussion from the start (through a heads up PM or something of the sort) would be apropos but each to their own and I obviously don't know if that was done here or not.

OF posts aren't the hateful comments section of a youtube video with racial slurs and ad hominem attacks but just good dialogue. I feel like much of the perceived offense taken at a comment here or there is often due to the lack of emotion and nuance within written/read text vis a vis speech (unless you count yourself amongst Joyce or Yeats and can pull that kind of thing off).

All in all, keep up the good work and respectability, ladies and gentlemen.

Hi ahantel
Except for a few execption, the discussion is rather polite and constructive. I feel a bit sad because I wish you could see the watch in reality. I have no problems discussing the condition of the watches I sell. Otherwie I wouldn't selle over there.
What is not acceptable are the posts suggesting that I'm not honnest. I gave my opinion of the price I would pay for this watch If I had the means of acquiring it. I already have two speedies and 6 other omegas so buying a new one is not a priority. Morever, I'd really like to pimp a speedy with service parts but that is not the point here.

cheers

Spacefruit · Sep 10, 2016

Kwijibo
my thoughts :
1st one : big bump one the bezel and faded (not ghost). Bracelet is legit? looks like a 1171 but not sure
2nd : poor general condition : plots, dial in general, bezel, stains on the hands if I see well
3d one : nice but medium condition bezel, no lume on the chrono hand, I would call dial generally but not exceptionnal.
it's jut a (bit hard?) judgement. I allow myself to be hard as people don't seem to be especially indulging with me 😗
Generally I prefer my 71, whaot do you think of the general condition?

Absolutely fair points. My point is that these watches are on a wide open market, and yet are unsold at half the asking of the op watch.

Do I prefer the op watch? Absolutely.

However I have still to see a picture of the op watch with the DO90 bezel attached and the paperwork showing the number of the watch. With one photograph the op watch could improve its desirability immensely.

Remember my only real issue is that the op watch is marketed for a price so much more than any other of the same reference, and yet still has many issues - as do most vintage watches of course. It's just that if you ask double the market rate for something, it better be pretty hard to find fault or you are going to get a bit of stick!

Now, @Kwijibo , can we see a shot of the watch complete as being offered with the bezel, and a shot of the paperwork that goes with it showing the serial?

Kwijibo · Sep 10, 2016

Spacefruit

As I said a few posts ago. I'm going to change my ad probably tomorrow for several reasons :
1/ the pics could be better
2/ I should have took the dial off the watch to show it naked. Hope it will show the original condition of the plots and the flawless dial. The superb original crystal, the excellent condition of the bracelet, the flawless condition of the movement.
3/ I intend to shoot it on every angles for you all to judge the condition of the case.
4/ as for papers, I haven't made my mind yet about the adequacy of giving the full serial number. Usually sellers show only the first digit. Of course the papers and the extract have the same numbers and reference. otherwise I would be a masochist :whipped:

5/ I'm going to say I'm the seller as 'selling for a friend" seem to irritate some of you even if that's the truth. As I'll take the money and refund my friend aftewars that boils down to the same thing.

My friend bought it to the fisrt owner. He wore it probably a few weeks before putting in in a drawer. Know that it sounds like the 'uncle's watch story' but these things happen a few times in life.
I remember buying a praticaly NOS Eterna matic a fex year ago for 150 euros that looked like out of the shop though it had 45 or 50 years.

Generally, You must have undesrtood that I'm not a native english speaker, So i I said some things clumsily or been to hard with some of you, that was not my intention. I generally have respect for people (question of education) as long as they don't go to far.

peace to all and let's have a peaceful conversation.

blubarb · Sep 10, 2016

Spacefruit
Absolutely fair points. My point is that these watches are on a wide open market, and yet are unsold at half the asking of the op watch.

Do I prefer the op watch? Absolutely.

However I have still to see a picture of the op watch with the DO90 bezel attached and the paperwork showing the number of the watch. With one photograph the op watch could improve its desirability immensely.

Remember my only real issue is that the op watch is marketed for a price so much more than any other of the same reference, and yet still has many issues - as do most vintage watches of course. It's just that if you ask double the market rate for something, it better be pretty hard to find fault or you are going to get a bit of stick!

Now, @Kwijibo , can we see a shot of the watch complete as being offered with the bezel, and a shot of the paperwork that goes with it showing the serial?

I also suggest a photo of both the inside case back and the movement, including movement number.

Kwijibo · Sep 10, 2016

yes I will. Good idea.

watchknut · Sep 10, 2016

How crazy would it be if after proper pictures, the watch is REALLY in awesome, original condition...with full boxes and papers.

While I don't have a lot of experience with higher end watches, I do know that full kits always bring a lot more than a nice example without.

My gut tells me that if @Kwijibo's friend is willing, he will get $10k for this watch.

Why?

Because there are none others in the market like it, and if you are like some collectors on here, you will want an excellent original conditon full set.

Looking forward to the new pics.

Spacefruit · Sep 10, 2016

watchknut
How crazy would it be if after proper pictures, the watch is REALLY in awesome, original condition...with full boxes and papers.

While I don't have a lot of experience with higher end watches, I do know that full kits always bring a lot more than a nice example without.

My gut tells me that if @Kwijibo's friend is willing, he will get $10k for this watch.

Why?

Because there are none others in the market like it, and if you are like some collectors on here, you will want an excellent original conditon full set.

Looking forward to the new pics.

Yes I would love to see that.

I do respectfully suggest this watch was poorly presented, for the price expectation.

I DO think it could look a lot better.

My query with the papers is to confirm they are for the watch. A simple declaration to that effect is fine but I am really not sure why a seller should withhold a serial- especially to establish provenance via the papers. However I totally accept the decision to do so, but as a potential buyer if I am going to add a premium there must be no doubt for the papers. So even sight of the first few digits to establish its not a blank set is fine.

Good luck with the photos.

Certainly this watch is getting a lot of exposure!

Is this Transitional worth €12,000?

blubarb

Kwijibo

blubarb

Traveler

Kwijibo

Kwijibo

blubarb

wsfarrell

Spacefruit

72c

t_swiss_t

Kwijibo

Kwijibo

Kwijibo

Spacefruit

Kwijibo

blubarb

Kwijibo

watchknut

Spacefruit

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