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Is PayPal falling out of favor ?

gatorcpa
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Bernhard J Bernhard J
Why should I trust someone who expresses distrust towards me ..
That is 100% correct. One pays for convenience and protection. I’m sorry if the fees are too high, but PayPal has a business to run.

My general policy with sellers is, first transaction has to be PayPal G&S with a credit card. If the deal is right, I’ll pay the 3.5% fee. After you establish a track record with me, then we can talk about other, less expensive methods that will save us both a little money.
gatorcpa
 
Zman4eva
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I like PayPal as a buyer as well. Same reasons that others have given where I can use my credit card, there's buyer protection if it's G&S, and PayPal gives 0% financing terms.
 
Braindrain
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Bernhard J Bernhard J
I have developed a favor for Paypal, wherein I am typically on the buyers side. It provides safety when buying from persons unknown to me. In case of persons known to me, I like to use Paypal FF for transactions to non-EU countries, because it is so much more comfortable than wiring money to abroad. Finally, Paypal charges my credit card, so that I in any case can call back money withdrawn by them without cause.

Wait.... did I understand that correctly. You can dispute charges sent through Paypal F&F? Or were you referring to G&S ?
 
Bernhard J
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Braindrain Braindrain
Wait.... did I understand that correctly. You can dispute charges sent through Paypal F&F? Or were you referring to G&S ?

I use AMEX for paying Paypal. And could call back debits made from my AMEX account within certain periods (I would have to look it up, I never yet had a reason to do that). The same by the way in case of a SEPA direct debit from a current account. This is independent of Paypal FF or GS.

In contrast, if wired, the money cannot be called back, no chance.

In doubt Paypal would consequently have to sue me in Germany, if they think to be entitled to a payment from my side. And not me them in in Canada or USA, or Ireland (?), if I have been debited without cause, be it fraud, scam, whatever.

P.S.: This is NOT a model for cheating anyone. If I am in duty of making a payment and would call back a debit, Palpal would and could sue me (in Germany) and win, resulting in that I would have to additionally pay all court and attorneys costs, including those of Paypal.

It just gives me peace of mind that if something goes wrong at Paypal (e.g. hacked account), it is not me having to run after my money. Or if I receive a brick instead of a nice watch. That is, by the way, the reason why Paypal do not immediately release a payment to a seller, as soon as tracking says "delivered". The buyer has time to open a case, if the parcel comprised a brick only.
Edited:
 
140dave
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artek artek
Poor exchange rates and high fees.
Not a defense of PP but they do offer the option of not paying their currency exchange rate and exchange fees by charging your card in the currency of the sale. My card doesn’t have currency exchange fees so for me it’s a pretty even exchange.
 
Bernhard J
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No, it just looks so. If you look at the actual exchange rates, you will find that Paypal charges you with a bad exchange rate, i.e. their margin. You do not escape that, in contrast, you take up exchange rate margins at your end (instead of the seller at his end). As to my experience, they do not charge the credit card e.g. in GBP, but in Euro ...

As an example, if you pay a UK fellow 1000 GBP, he will get 1000 GBP (less business fee, if applicable). But you will be charged rather 1180 Euro than 1150 Euro by Paypal, the latter being the current official exchange rate. Of course you need to use your desk calculator for finding out ... 😎
Edited:
 
josiahg52
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Braindrain Braindrain
Wait.... did I understand that correctly. You can dispute charges sent through Paypal F&F? Or were you referring to G&S ?

This is a common scam. Or rather, there was a rash of them a couple of years ago but I'm sure it's still done. You fund the transfer - F&F or G&S - with a credit card, receive the merchandise, and then dispute the charge/purchase as fraudulent or something else. The credit card company wants to help, refunds the money, reverses the charge against PayPal and then PayPal comes after you - the seller - for funds to level your account with them. Now, if you've already transferred the money out of PayPal and any linked accounts, there's not much PayPal can do monetarily at that point. If you ignore it, they'll close your PayPal account.
 
140dave
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Bernhard J Bernhard J
No, it just looks so. If you look at the actual exchange rates, you will find that Paypal charges you with a bad exchange rate, i.e. their margin. You do not escape that, in contrast, you take up exchange rate margins at your end (instead of the seller at his end). As to my experience, they do not charge the credit card e.g. in GBP, but in Euro ...

As an example, if you pay a UK fellow 1000 GBP, he will get 1000 GBP (less business fee, if applicable). But you will be charged rather 1180 Euro than 1150 Euro by Paypal, the latter being the current official exchange rate. Of course you need to use your desk calculator for finding out ... 😎
Well no, it is actually so. My credit card was charged exactly the amount, in GBP, that I agreed to. Not in euro or another currency. No exchange fee just the basic PayPal transaction fee of $4.95.

The transaction I just completed would have been $620 if I used PayPal currency exchange but was only $585 through my card. Maybe it’s only an option in the US but it does avoid the PayPal exchange fees, it does not avoid the standard PP transaction fee. Again, the PayPal fees are huge if you use them but there is a workaround at least in the US on the exchange fee portion.
 
josiahg52
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Bernhard J Bernhard J
No, it just looks so. If you look at the actual exchange rates, you will find that Paypal charges you with a bad exchange rate, i.e. their margin. You do not escape that, in contrast, you take up exchange rate margins at your end (instead of the seller at his end). As to my experience, they do not charge the credit card e.g. in GBP, but in Euro ...

As an example, if you pay a UK fellow 1000 GBP, he will get 1000 GBP (less business fee, if applicable). But you will be charged rather 1180 Euro than 1150 Euro by Paypal, the latter being the current official exchange rate. Of course you need to use your desk calculator for finding out ... 😎

If I fund a purchase in the native currency with my credit union Visa debit card, my credit union provides the exchange rate and transfers the required USD. They even refund the Visa ISA fee. If I fund it in USD, that was the only time I became aware of PayPal's outrageous exchange rates. My experience anyway.
 
nitediver
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Paypal is complete No-Go for me as a seller. In a cross-country, cross currency transactions, the fees are crazy. i havent checked for a while, but i remember it was well over 5%. Thats ok for a 30 dollar transaction, but for 5000 Euros its complete nonsense for an online payment service.
Even as a buyer i try to avoid it. Just my experience.
Stefan
 
Bernhard J
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nitediver nitediver
Paypal is complete No-Go for me as a seller.

But what do you request instead? Do you use another escrow agent service (Paypal Business is actually nothing else)?

Take me. I do not know you. Thus, I would never send you money to the USA by wiring. I would have to sue you in the USA and this is rediculeous for Europeans, except if we are talking of 6+-figure amounts. Because otherwise the non refundable costs would always exceed the amount in dispute.

I would not pay 5000$ in advance, just like you would not provide me a watch worth 5000 $ in advance. How would we resolve this other than with an escrow agent?

Or, of course, not enter into the deal right from the beginning. I am a collector and do not weap if I do not get something I like. But you may miss the opportunity to enter into a business relationship with a more or less wealthy foreigner. But I know, some sellers have no interest anyway in expanding their business internationally, and this is absolutely OK if the home market is fully sufficient.
Edited:
 
josiahg52
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As a infrequent but lately kind of busy seller, I accept Zelle, bank/wire transfer, or USPS money order. Half a dozen sales via Zelle all have gone perfectly, one via wire transfer to Germany went perfectly. These were cheaper sales but I'm hoping to work up to selling a more expensive Tudor and a much more expensive Omega.

I don't know the sellers either. They can just as easily scam me if I acceoted PayPal as I could them by not accepting PayPal..
 
Bernhard J
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Well, in case of cheap buys (less than say 300€), I am happy to take the (low) risk ob being scamed. Because this risk is comparably even lower in that sector.

But in the 2000+ range I am not willing to take full risk, because that would be in a range that really hurts.

As said, if I know a seller, i.e. have made good experiences in the past, there is no real risk, so that I use ways of paying, which have the least load of fees for both.

P.S.: By the way, if I wire from Germany to the USA my bank charges me about 45€, irrespective of the amount sent (I always order them to charge foreign bank fees to me). Then sending e.g. 300€ to the USA via Paypal Business is a lot cheaper than wiring, even if I absorb the Paypal fees at my end.
Edited:
 
nitediver
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There is no simple solution to this.
But i have indeed sent a couple of thousand USD or Euros to private sellers before, after marking sure that the watch in their hands and after careful checking their credentials as a seller as well as references.

As for suing a seller that doesnt deliver, i fully agree thats rarely a viable option, even if the seller is wihin Europe. It can be done, but it is only worthile if the value is substantial. By the way, i am Switzerland.

best

Stefan


Bernhard J Bernhard J
But what do you request instead? Do you use another escrow agent service (Paypal Business is actually nothing else)?

Take me. I do not know you. Thus, I would never send you money to the USA by wiring. I would have to sue you in the USA and this is rediculeous for Europeans, except if we are talking of 6+-figure amounts. Because otherwise the non refundable costs would always exceed the amount in dispute.

I would not pay 5000$ in advance, just like you would not provide me a watch worth 5000 $ in advance. How would we resolve this other than with an escrow agent?

Or, of course, not enter into the deal right from the beginning. I am a collector and do not weap if I do not get something I like. But you may miss the opportunity to enter into a business relationship with a more or less wealthy foreigner. But I know, some sellers have no interest anyway in expanding their business internationally, and this is absolutely OK if the home market is fully sufficient.
 
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