Got an email from PayPal tonight.

So what does this really mean, for watch sales through eBay and/or watch sales via the watch forums, for sellers and buyers?

Does the seller have to invoice the buyer, and the buyer logs in to pay? And how is that different from the buyer logging in to simply send money to the seller's email address? Both require a log-in.

I went to the link in the email, and they went into a little more detail - but it's still confusing about how would a buyer pay for a transaction where they don't have to log into PayPal to complete the transaction? (thus voiding seller protection). And how does the seller know whether the buyer paid in such a way as to provide seller protection or not?

I have been so disillusioned with PayPal for transactions where buyers or sellers get hosed in the process, that I try to avoid PayPal as often as possible. I just don't trust them to have my best interests in mind regardless of whether I'm selling or buying.

 

Looks to me like they are sweetening the pot for buyers and sellers who transact within Pay Pal.

 

I was also confused by the 'logging in' part...

 

It seems to me that if I sell something, and the buyer doesn't pay the "right way" but I don't know that they didn't pay the right way, that I could lose seller protection. I don't understand how the seller can monitor how the buyer logs in to pay?

I mean, I think that someone can paypal another person via text message, which is not done by logging into paypal, it's done by using a paypal trusted device, and so does that mean I'm not covered if that's how they choose to send the money?

I would hope that we are still covered for "seller protection" if we always invoice someone for the payment, and then when they pay us, we ship them the item only to their verified paypal address and nowhere else? That seems like the only way to have protection. I always document visually the item's condition and packing procedure before shipping, and make sure there is a proper chain of custody of the item that I can prove.

Is the word "transaction" in their terms meant to imply an eBay sale or commercial business sale are the only ones eligible for seller protection?

 

so I read that as: Private Sales - no protection!

Nice one paypal.

 

No what they are saying is that the private sale is ok and protected as long as buyer and seller are both logged into PayPal and shipment is are made between addresses on file.

 

Negative, assuming that by "private sale" you mean using the personal payment option. If you accept personal payment instead of "goods & services" there's absolutely zero seller protection because it's not supposed to be used for sales. If the buyer doesn't have the funds to cover the payment, there's no "backup" funding source the way there is for goods & services payments; so, a fraudulent buyer could do this purposely or (purposely drain the account after the transaction). If that happens, the money just never gets sent and the transaction fails. (For good & services, PayPal automatically deducts the funds from the backup funding source.) Just because the payment seems to go through on the seller's end, that doesn't mean the money's really there; it just means that PayPal has relayed the payment. If it's good's & services, you're protected; if it's a personal payment, you're not. If a goods & services payment fails, PP just reimburses themselves from the backup funding source; if it's a personal payment, they just deduct the payment issued to you and the case is closed with no option for any kind of appeal.

On the original question, I believe it means there's no seller protection if either party doesn't actually have (and use) a PayPal account. You can receive money issued on PP without an account and you can issue payment on PP as a guest without a PP account. The only way to protect yourself is to make sure that the transaction says "Eligible for Seller Protection"; if it doesn't say that, you should assume you're not protected.

 

No this is what I meant.

 

Personal payment is a gift, not a transaction.
Goods & services is a transaction. e.g. private sale.

 

Understood. I'm only explaining it because most sellers believe that they're better off taking personal "gift" payments when they sell their watches. In reality, they're gambling the entire amount of the payment for the relatively inconsequential savings of the PayPal fees.

 

Its all about protecting their bottom line. Not yours

 

I forgot that people could pay via credit card using PayPal as the processor without using their PayPal account, such as when paying for an auction that they won on eBay. I think I saw this option when I bought a Speedy earlier this week.

But can they do that, and bypass their PayPal account for payment, when you send them a detailed PayPal invoice to be paid for an item?

 

If you issue a credit dispute it will affect your PayPal account. T.O.S. Most likely papal will cancel your account and put your account in a neg

 

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure how that is related to my question?

I'm just trying to make sure I don't get caught in a loophole and sell a watch but then have the money taken away from me after I ship it.

 

I believe they can, because I think you can send a PP invoice to someone who doesn't have a PP account and that person can also pay you without having a PP account as a guest.

To the extent PP protects buyers, it does so only by ensuring that it has a means of recouping any money it lays out on behalf of the pending transaction from an alternate funding source guaranteed by the owners of PP accounts. There are certain situations where both parties having a PP account and it still isn't necessarily enough to protect you, but if the buyer doesn't have a guaranteed backup funding sources on file from which PP can make itself whole after a transaction fails on the buyer's end, they're not going to reimburse you from PP funds.

I believe to cover all of the potential loopholes and pitfalls and areas open to exploitation, you'd have to confirm that the buyer and seller have PP accounts; if you're the seller, you need to check for the indication that "This transaction is eligible for seller protection" on your screen; but to be really safe, and you'd also have to ask the buyer to wait for the item for as long as both banks (his and yours) take to confirm that the transaction is totally complete and cleared. I bought my 1861 that way: sent a personal check to Arkansas and agreed to wait until his bank confirmed that the transaction was complete, which took about 2 weeks.

Otherwise, you could send your watch as soon as your bank statement reflects the deposit and know it's been delivered...and then find out a week or 2 later that the buyer purposely chose a bank whose location adds extra time before the seller eventually receives notice of insufficient funds in the seller's account. If that happens, the only way you're getting you money back is: (1) if the failure was accidental and the honest buyer genuinely wants to make you whole ASAP or (2) small claims court (which isn't practical across international borders).

There's also one specific kind of bad-outcome from which you have zero protection even with two PP accounts that I'm not going to publicize unnecessarily.

[Apologies for any gibberish above...was fighting off Ambien to post that.]

 

Can someone explain the changes to me like I’m 5 yrs old? What changes are made if I the seller have an authenticated PP account.

Thanks in advance

 

Your right it was completely unrelated..
Regardless..I don't trust using PP at all selling valuable items. You might as well send your item to the person and hope to get payment from them. Too many frauds even from established persons as the temptation is there to file chargeback or item not as listed

 

I got this notice too, and I think this is the correct answer.

The way I understand it, if you login on Paypal to make payment - i.e. Paypal invoice, Paypal Me, basically situations where the buyer needs to log into their Paypal account to send money.

What is not protected is if you are a seller using Paypal like a merchant account i.e. virtual terminal charging a credit card directly, or you have a website that takes credit card info (but behind they scenes uses Paypal as a credit card processor).

That said, I am wondering why they are mentioning this today, as there has been no seller protection for virtual terminal or cc processing transaction for years now. This is in fact the only reason why the checkout at my watch e-commerce store requires a Paypal login instead of just getting credit card information, is so I can continue to have seller protection. Again, I've needed to do this for years now.

The bottom line for most sellers, based on my understanding is that you're not affected, unless you use Paypal virtual terminal to charge people's credit cards

edit: heres more from the PP website:

• It involves sales that are not processed either through a buyer’s PayPal account or a guest checkout transaction. For example, if the sale was made using the PayPal Payments Pro/VT product, PayPal business payments or using PayPal Here, then it is not eligible for coverage.

So credit card payments using Paypal as a credit card processor, including PAYPAL HERE (that card reader you stick on your phone and tablet) are not protected

 

That sounds kinda like a d*ck move on paypal's part.

 

Bottom line here is regardless of PP policy updates.. NO seller is protected.