Is My Collection Ruined?

@watchknut Maybe your username sub text:

"Maintains a collection of ruined watches"

After reading this thread, I just grabbed my 166.091, JLC Memovox, Lemania Elvstrom (just sold, shipping tomorrow) and my Ed White to set the time. The Ed White and Lemania hands move one way when rotating crown and the JLC and 166.091 hands move the opposite way when rotating crown same way.

Been wearing a different watch every day, setting the time each day, and no idea this was happening.

I like that, going to add that soon for sure.

Don't you feel like a dolt for not noticing the difference in crown rotation? I am envisioning an article on Hodinkee that places a higher value on watches whose movements set clockwise and clockwise, as those are more rare, and show superior craftsmanship.

"feels like a dolt for not noticing the obvious"

Well I think my wife would agree, and I am not even talking about watches 😀

Glashutte for sure...awful watch...did your watchmaker butcher it and change the mechanics 😀

You'll break Dr. No's heart 🙁

Hello all, my name is Adam, and i am the "villain" in this story. Many of you know me, and i am good friends with a ton of people in the watch community, including several on this very forum, so i am not going to answer to the cries of scamster and fraudster, etc, b/c anyone who knows me can and will vouch for my honesty and character..in fact, before this blew up, i was actively trying to HELP the seller..

Well, since good guy Matt has put me on blast here (very gentlemanly of him), i feel its only fitting you guys get the full story. There are two sides to every story... Before i get into the whole movement-winding fiasco, which i will admit, i am wrong (although you will understand why shortly), let me give you all a precursor and full rundown of the events that transpired.

Matt lists a Bulova diver on ebay, listing here:

Bulova Super Waterproof Blancpain Fifty Fathoms Aqualung 36.5mm Bakelite Bezel

i check out the picture and the description, matt leaves his number, i text him...we agree on a price, i pay him promptly, and even send him a fedex label, at my expense.

The watch arrives, and the first thing i notice (well, it jumped out at me, as it would any of you) is that the 12 o'clock marker is off...i suspect glue or some adhesive, as there is an outline around the plot...i text Matt, ask him what the deal is...he feigns ignorance, claims he just thought it was "degradation"...not being one to make a scene or ever get upset, i tell him not to worry, let me ask a few more people, see if anything can be done, confirm what it is, and then we'll figure it out together...i show it to ABC watchwerks, my local watchmaker, and a bunch of other watch-friends...they all suspect its been messed with, and it's certainly not "degradation"...will be happy to provide macro pics if anyone is interested, but this is obviously not the topic of conversation, just the events leading up..(BTW, now confirmed glue/adhesive)

i give matt three options, he can choose whichever he likes: 1) i can send it to ABC/my watchmaker to see if maybe it can be cleaned up, if so, no harm no foul, b) i would return the watch, c) he provide a partial refund...as you see in the pictures in the listing, it all looks fine, and the pictures are deceptive...NO ONE HERE WOULD NOT NOTICE THE MESSED UP MARKER/PLOT AND INTENTIONALLY NOT DISCLOSE OR HIGHLIGHT THE FACT IN A LISTING..i know i certainly would not...anyways, mistakes happen, as they often do, i dont make a big deal out of it, and we agree to a small refund...and that is that, so i thought..

That day, i was busy, so i really did not get to handle the watch much, save for the dial inspection..the next day i wake up and go to set the watch in order to wear it...as i set the hands in normal fashion, and rotate the crown bottom to top, the hands move counter-clockwise...Again, i am man enough to admit when i am wrong, and i'll be the first to admit i am no expert on movements, and i am certainly not a watchmaker...however, i have handled, owned, bought, and sold TONS of watches, from modern to vintage, from brands ranging from rolex and patek down to the bottom of the barrel. NOT ONCE have i seen a handset set counter-clock wise when rotating the crown bottom to top (or, 6 to 12 if you will)...not once...i have since checked every watch i currently possess at home (around 20), not one sets that way...before i texted Matt, i asked 4 other collectors and friends, one being an industry person, who handles tons of watches on a daily basis, and they all confirmed that they too had never seen this.

SO, i text matt (AND BY THE WAY, SINCE MATT IS SO WILLINGLY TO PM ANYONE MY NAME, BY ALL MEANS, PM ME FOR THE TEXT CONVO TO VERIFY WHAT I AM SAYING AND HOW I WAS TRYING TO BE AS NICE AS POSSIBLE, AND HOW MUCH HE HAS LEFT OUT OF THIS STORY WHILE BEING MORE THAN HAPPY TO VILLANIZE ME...I WILL GLADLY SEND YOU THE ENTIRE EXCHANGE) to inquire as to whether the watch had always been like this and whether it's maybe a bulova-movement thing. HE IMMEDIATELY GOES ON THE DEFENSIVE...talking about how he "accommodated" me with the dial issue (accommodated me? bro, you sold me a fυcked up watch with damage on the dial not shown in the pics!), etc. Meanwhile, i never ONCE even hinted about trying to "scam" him out of a further refund...IN FACT, i assured him that i was KEEPING the watch, and AGAIN reiterated that i was just trying to see if he knew why it did rotated that way...yes, at the end, i did go on to say that ive never seen this before, and state that i think his watchmakers must have butchered his watches, etc.

Again, i now know that i am wrong, and i still find it CRAZY that i've never handled a watch that set this way....as one dear friend who has heard the tale say it, memory is a funny thing, and it's likely i have seen this, but just don't remember...very possible (probable)....however, if you jumped in a car and gas and brake pedal were swapped, would you not too be alarmed? AM I THAT WRONG FOR INQUIRING AS TO WHY IT SET COUNTER CLOCKWISE? Would you not do the same?

We all learn something new everyday, and i'll be the first to admit, i far from know everything about watches...but when something seems off to me (and after the dial being messed up, i had every right to doubt), i ask questions. Again, i am certainly not a scammer, and i treat everyone with respect and kindness, I go out of my way to befriend everyone, and help everyone in need however i can.

I welcome you all to talk with me directly, and not jump to any conclusions about me based on the half-truth.

No, there are 3 sides - yours, theirs, and the truth.

Hi Adam,

I am really curious about this glue/adhesive you are referring to. An adhesive/gluey binder is part of the mixture that makes up a luminous plot, could that be what you are seeing? Or are you saying that the 12 o'clock marker was formed separate from the dial and was then glued on as one chunk? That's not how plots like these are applied. Could it not be that the plot was just applied slightly askew at the factory? Another thing that could explain the glue you see could be an attempt at some point to stabilize the lume, which seems plausible considering that the lume on the hands has already flaked.

Amazing how often this comes up!


New game! How many threads Can you LEGITIMATELY raise this story in?

You certainly have squarely cemented yourself as one now with your comments here. Many of the watches I've seen you sell and show on instagram (e.g. JLC memovox Caliber 815, UG polerouter cal 69) are set in counter-clockwise motion, so I really can't understand why you wouldn't have noticed that. An important detail like that should not have escaped you especially if you are a dealer of vintage watches. Regarding the dial we won't know what the issue was unless you show us using hi-res macros because, as you say, there isn't an apparent problem that I can see from looking at those ebay pics. I agree with @the future's comments above and it seems like you were able to come to a mutually agreeable situation, so what exactly is the problem?

If your contention is that you were put on blast, it doens't seem like it was @watchknut's intention to do that at least at first as he was just as confused as you were about the setting directions. Many of us here pushed him to think that he was being scammed, and to be frank (finally got to use it again!), if someone came at me with that line of inquiry I would also have thought to myself that I was being scammed. I am in no way saying that you are a scammer, but behaving like an internet troll won't serve you well here.

I surveyed the watches here at my desk.

Counter clockwise: 6
Clockwise: 3

Notable counters: ETA 2824, JLC 889/2, Reverso 854, Gyromatic
Clockwisers: 321 (OK, I didn't test since I'm wearing it, but going with the OP's report, not memory), 3135

I would really be interested in a close up of the glued lume dot.

Having lumed and re-lumed hundred's of watches, in my experience these original lume plots simply don't fall off in one piece, aged lume is very brittle and it would seem odd that the plot fell off intact, didn't get damaged by the hands and was then able to be handled in one piece in re-glued in place. From looking at the ebay pictures it's certainly not visible, the glue that is.

It sounds like the glue is simply the dial clear coat, most lume binder melts the clear coat when it's applied, and the lume is applied in a wet pasty state, not as a complete dot in one piece. Like icing on a cake.

Re the hands turning the "wrong" way, I see this all the time as well, not sure on the percentage but for sure a large percentage of watches that I service have this layout, it's simply due to the number of gears between the crown and the cannon pinion, add or remove a gear and the rotation direction switches...

Rob

I like your post with all the caps in, so we know EXACTLY what to read.

Credibility points -1 for using "Bro".